Handicap manipulation - how to address

[clubchamp98]

How much money is involved in taking a club to court? Just because you are annoyed by a poxy handicap cut, after evidence you have been unusually successful using that handicap in events?

The handicapping authorities give Clubs the power to adjust handicaps where they see it is necessary. From what has been presented in here, the evidence looks about as clear as it could ever hope to be.

I'd have thought:

The Club have extremely clear evidence of cheating, and can act. They could simply give the players big handicap cuts, and continue to monitor them. I think they even have a case in suspending handicaps, although I reckon that may be something that is better done AFTER the players have been cut AND given an official explanation/warning.

The players, if they want, can appeal this at the Club, but I don't think they have much of a case. They could then Appeal to County, who can then discuss this with the Club. I'm 99% certain the County will back the club, unless there is information we are missing. When we transitioned to WHS, at the meetings with England Golf, EG made it clear that Clubs should monitor and adjust handicaps where suspect behaviour is suspected, and at EG level, they said they would generally give the Club their full support (assuming the Club was not being completely unreasonable)

Accusing people of cheating needs cast iron evidence.

Just because their individual scores are high isn’t enough to accuse someone of cheating imo.
Their gaming the system ,but courts only consider facts.

It’s a bad system open to abuse, as this case is proving.

If someone has the money they will go to court there’s always one.
If they win what do clubs do then ?

 

[Slab]

Accusing people of cheating needs cast iron evidence.

Just because their individual scores are high isn’t enough to accuse someone of cheating imo.
Their gaming the system ,but courts only consider facts.

It’s a bad system open to abuse, as this case is proving.

If someone has the money they will go to court there’s always one.
If they win what do clubs do then ?

Although you don’t have to accuse them of cheating in order to talk to them (as I mentioned on page 1)

Talk to them to ask them to explain &/or comment on the pattern and trend of scores/results, due to concerns being raised

 

[clubchamp98]

Although you don’t have to accuse them of cheating in order to talk to them (as I mentioned on page 1)

Talk to them to ask them to explain &/or comment on the pattern and trend of scores/results, due to concerns being raised

I hear you!

But talking to someone in my experience leads to accusations depending how you say it and what they hear.!
unless they just put their hands up ( unlikley) counter arguments.

The fact it’s four of them makes this very messy imo.
It’s a major problem and as clubs try to navigate a way around it I can see some big trouble.

“ I just struggle in individual comps but play well in team events with the safety net of my partners”
This is a popular defence.
Heard it several times.

 

[Slab]

I hear you!

But talking to someone in my experience leads to accusations depending how you say it and what they hear.!
unless they just put their hands up ( unlikley) counter arguments.

The fact it’s four of them makes this very messy imo.
It’s a major problem and as clubs try to navigate a way around it I can see some big trouble.

“ I just struggle in individual comps but play well in team events with the safety net of my partners”
This is a popular defence.
Heard it several times.

Yeah could easily play out that way, but it would take a particularly ballsy 4-ball to continue their 'shenanigans' after being called into the club for discussions about handicaps

 

[clubchamp98]

Yeah could easily play out that way, but it would take a particularly ballsy 4-ball to continue their 'shenanigans' after being called into the club for discussions about handicaps

Yes but I know a few of them.
Clubs are full of them.

Bit like the slow play ones who have been warned!

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Yeah could easily play out that way, but it would take a particularly ballsy 4-ball to continue their 'shenanigans' after being called into the club for discussions about handicaps

You are coming at this from the angle of being a decent person, having sporting values. Their mindset is very different, it is about winning, getting money, getting prizes. They don't care how. Different way of thinking, a horrible way of thinking.

 

[Slab]

You are coming at this from the angle of being a decent person, having sporting values. Their mindset is very different, it is about winning, getting money, getting prizes. They don't care how. Different way of thinking, a horrible way of thinking.

Slab The Moralist?

I'd prefer something with a bit more of a kick to it really

 

[LincolnShep]

Slab The Moralist?

I'd prefer something with a bit more of a kick to it really

Slab the Vanquisher?

 

[Arthur Wedge]

You are coming at this from the angle of being a decent person, having sporting values. Their mindset is very different, it is about winning, getting money, getting prizes. They don't care how. Different way of thinking, a horrible way of thinking.

We have seen over the years that golf is rife with players that find a way to win big competitions

There was a lot of noise in the past about some guys from Ireland who pretty much won every big open going

Trilby
HDID matchplay
AG matchplay
Golf care Matchplay

All of these events carried prizes like holidays to Turkey to play rounds and full sets of clubs etc


Someone won the lot over a period of time and his handicap went up and never went below 20 even now he won another big one in Turkey - Handicap went up again

A lot of these events know the people and they need to ban them

There have also been a lot of videos recently showing prize presentations

The funniest one is from the US when a team won by 9 shots playing scramble - when it was amazed and they walked up to get their 1000 dollar prize it was mental

 

[Swango1980]

Accusing people of cheating needs cast iron evidence.

Just because their individual scores are high isn’t enough to accuse someone of cheating imo.
Their gaming the system ,but courts only consider facts.

It’s a bad system open to abuse, as this case is proving.

If someone has the money they will go to court there’s always one.
If they win what do clubs do then ?

The club can be as diplomatic as they want. They could initially indicate handicaps are being cut, as there is proof the players are scoring unusually well in Team competitions. Also highlighting that individual scores, like General Play scores, do not appear to match their ability in competitive team formats. As Slab says, the Club do not have to mention the word cheating at all.

However, depending on how conversations go, and exactly how direct the Club want to be, I see zero harm in them making it clear that the club suspects them of cheating, or handicap manipulation, and they are acting accordingly. Nothing needs to be proven beyond all reasonable doubt, no one is being sent to prison or being fined (this is not the Post Office). As long as there is reasonable circumstantial evidence, the Club not only has grounds to act, it is compulsory that it DOES act. That is their job. If it doesn't, then what happens if other golfers with fair handicaps put in a complaint against the Club? I know what side I would want to be on, and not the side where the club fails to adhere to its responsibility because it is scared someone might go to great expense and take them to court.

And, would the courts not just laugh at anyone trying to begin such a case. Surely their first response would be "don't waste your time and money, contact your County Golf Union"

 

[Hobbit]

Others might take the club to court.!

It’s very difficult to accuse four people of collusion to cheat.
That imo is the main problem.

Admittedly a few years back. As comp/handicap sec at a club I cut a 4 man team that were scooping club and local Opens on a too regular basis. I got threatened with a solicitor’s letter. My response was, “fine, we’ll suspend your h’cap now whilst we bring the County in to investigate your handicap. And by the way, I’m still waiting on your cards from x,y,z Opens. Care to explain that?”

It’s about having the … to take them on. You know they’re cheating, and they know they’re cheating. By flipping it to prove you’re not cheating is the way forward. It’s about open questions. “Can you tell me why you’ve won or been placed x number of times?” “Coz we’re that good.” “That’s fine, we’re cutting you to abc to recognise your achievements, well done.”

 

[Swango1980]

Admittedly a few years back. As comp/handicap sec at a club I cut a 4 man team that were scooping club and local Opens on a too regular basis. I got threatened with a solicitor’s letter. My response was, “fine, we’ll suspend your h’cap now whilst we bring the County in to investigate your handicap. And by the way, I’m still waiting on your cards from x,y,z Opens. Care to explain that?”

It’s about having the … to take them on. You know they’re cheating, and they know they’re cheating. By flipping it to prove you’re not cheating is the way forward. It’s about open questions. “Can you tell me why you’ve won or been placed x number of times?” “Coz we’re that good.” “That’s fine, we’re cutting you to abc to recognise your achievements, well done.”

Did it go any further after that?

 

[Hobbit]

Did it go any further after that?

Never heard a peep

 

[Swango1980]

Never heard a peep

I wonder if the letter was genuine, or the clever one in the group had just learned how to use Microsoft Word, and forged one up to intimidate you.

Did they stay on as members in the years that followed, or leave to see if they could con a different club?

 

[Hobbit]

They all stayed on at the club, played their Saturday games and kept a low profile. One guy had shot 51pts in a pairs comp with his son(22h’cap) who rarely played, and looked like he rarely played. The comp was at a club 330 miles away but the club was so concerned by his score they wrote to us…

 

[Arthur Wedge]

They all stayed on at the club, played their Saturday games and kept a low profile. One guy had shot 51pts in a pairs comp with his son(22h’cap) who rarely played, and looked like he rarely played. The comp was at a club 330 miles away but the club was so concerned by his score they wrote to us…

IMO the last bit is what should happen more often and for me there needs to be a way that all team or pairs open results are sent back to each club so HC secs have a better view of what their members are doing outside the club

 

[Swango1980]

IMO the last bit is what should happen more often and for me there needs to be a way that all team or pairs open results are sent back to each club so HC secs have a better view of what their members are doing outside the club

If only there was a piece of software that all clubs could sign up to, that had a database of Open players with their Handicap details, competition results, etc.

If any of your club players play in an Open, their scores are automatically reported at their home club on this software. If they enter comps, comp organisers can review their previous results, etc.

And, over time, an algorithm can be created that can highlight players with unusually good results, depending on formats played, size of field, etc

 

[LincolnShep]

If only there was a piece of software that all clubs could sign up to, that had a database of Open players with their Handicap details, competition results, etc.

If any of your club players play in an Open, their scores are automatically reported at their home club on this software. If they enter comps, comp organisers can review their previous results, etc.

And, over time, an algorithm can be created that can highlight players with unusually good results, depending on formats played, size of field, etc

Nah. That'll never work.

 

[Swango1980]

Nah. That'll never work.

I wonder if it could be done in Microsoft Excel, and I wonder if anyone in the world has the capability of building such a spreadsheet.........?

 

[LincolnShep]

I wonder if it could be done in Microsoft Excel, and I wonder if anyone in the world has the capability of building such a spreadsheet.........?

Excel is only accurate to about 15 significant figures. I don't think that will cut it.