Handicap manipulation - how to address

[Deleted member 29109]

The Comittiees that we were assured their workload would not change.
What a joke!

Mostly volunteers who now have to sort out what their cheating members are doing outside the club.!

It’s a very poor system just rife for cheating.
But all golfers are whiter than white we all know that.

Did they not have to deal with people cheating before? At least now it’s clear what they are doing.

 

[rulie]

The Comittiees that we were assured their workload would not change.
What a joke!

Mostly volunteers who now have to sort out what their cheating members are doing outside the club.!

It’s a very poor system just rife for cheating.
But all golfers are whiter than white we all know that.

There also appears to be an issue with the "bureaucracy" - committees being handicapped (or hiding behind) counties, national unions...
If actions need to be taken, take them, others may cheer the actions!

 

[Deleted member 29109]

There also appears to be an issue with the "bureaucracy" - committees being handicapped (or hiding behind) counties, national unions...
If actions need to be taken, take them, others may cheer the actions!

Too many committees in it just for the parking space and to enforce sock rules but lack the spine to deal with these people?

 

[rulie]

Too many committees in it just for the parking space and to enforce sock rules but lack the spine to deal with these people?

Then it's not a "system" problem, but a people problem?

 

[Deleted member 29109]

Then it's not a "system" problem, but a people problem?

Indeed it is.

Cheats will cheat. To blame WHS is laughable.

 

[IanM]

Did they not have to deal with people cheating before? At least now it’s clear what they are doing.

Of course, but the facility to enter scores with your mates online makes it so much easier!

 

[IanMcC]

You could put a note up on each of their Handicap Records, implying that the player's HI is suspect, but that could lead to all kinds of problems.

 

[Teebs]

Just had at look at some (not all) of their results in Open 4BBBs

Played in 6 Opens as a team in 2023, worst finish was 4th. They had 4 x 2nd place, 1 x 3rd place and 1 x 4th place finish (all in the prizes).
They've played 1 club 4BBB this year (1st) and a local Union 4BBB event (1st)

Some results from 2023 are harder to find, but just from the 6 that are easily found, their results/form are incredible..

2 of them have played in the mid-week medal today, one shot a net 69 (-3) and one shot a 82 (+10)...

 

[Alan Clifford]

Just had at look at some (not all) of their results in Open 4BBBs

Played in 6 Opens as a team in 2023, worst finish was 4th. They had 4 x 2nd place, 1 x 3rd place and 1 x 4th place finish (all in the prizes).
They've played 1 club 4BBB this year (1st) and a local Union 4BBB event (1st)

Some results from 2023 are harder to find, but just from the 6 that are easily found, their results/form are incredible..

2 of them have played in the mid-week medal today, one shot a net 69 (-3) and one shot a 82 (+10)...

With the 4bbb results now going on the handicap records, will you be able to compare those with their casual play records later this year?

 

[clubchamp98]

Did they not have to deal with people cheating before? At least now it’s clear what they are doing.

Yes but they have an app now where they can just put anything they want on it.

Under the old system it was point one back
Now you can be back to your winning handicap in a couple of days.

 

[clubchamp98]

There also appears to be an issue with the "bureaucracy" - committees being handicapped (or hiding behind) counties, national unions...
If actions need to be taken, take them, others may cheer the actions!

Others might take the club to court.!

It’s very difficult to accuse four people of collusion to cheat.
That imo is the main problem.

 

[IanM]

It's very difficult to make it stick, but if it looks like an elephant, smells like an elephant.... it's probably an etc etc

 

[clubchamp98]

It's very difficult to make it stick, but if it looks like an elephant, smells like an elephant.... it's probably an etc etc

In a court anything can happen.

 

[IanM]

I wonder how many events one group have to win by 10 points, before club managers start talking, and entries get thrown in the bin?

 

[clubchamp98]

I wonder how many events one group have to win by 10 points, before club managers start talking, and entries get thrown in the bin?

The thing I have noticed up here is opens still have empty tee times .
In the past that was unheard of ,you needed to get in quick.

Cost of living or cheating ?

 

[IanM]

Senior Open at Newport yesterday had several empty times. It usually sells out quickly.

It was very reasonably priced relative to the green fee, so who knows?

We enter team opens knowing that the winning score will be bonkers. The comp is pointless if you have bona fide handicaps.

 

[rulefan]

If this is as blatant as it seems, with them winning 80% of the Opens they enter as well as club team and 4BB (pre acceptability), then a little research with all the results from other clubs and winning margins and win %, you could easily build a decent case and review their handicaps accordingly.

I would advise contacting the County once you have built the case (it needs a good deal of evidence, not just 2 or 3 decent results) and run it past them first.

The County will be the ones to whom they will have to appeal and provided they share your opinion on the weight of evidence and intended action beforehand, then you can take the necessary action.

Clubs can take their own actions by refusing to accept their entries, or even assigning them handicaps for that event.

We and a few other clubs in the area coordinated refusing entries from a couple of similar groups. We haven't seen them since.
We also involved the County re another group and they apparently had words with what was then the EGU, who sorted it but it got nasty I believe.

We have 3 4BBB Opens a year, all oversubscribed.

 

[IanM]

I'll pass you some names if some tracking I'm doing delivers the expected outcome

 

[Swango1980]

Others might take the club to court.!

It’s very difficult to accuse four people of collusion to cheat.
That imo is the main problem.

How much money is involved in taking a club to court? Just because you are annoyed by a poxy handicap cut, after evidence you have been unusually successful using that handicap in events?

The handicapping authorities give Clubs the power to adjust handicaps where they see it is necessary. From what has been presented in here, the evidence looks about as clear as it could ever hope to be.

I'd have thought:

The Club have extremely clear evidence of cheating, and can act. They could simply give the players big handicap cuts, and continue to monitor them. I think they even have a case in suspending handicaps, although I reckon that may be something that is better done AFTER the players have been cut AND given an official explanation/warning.

The players, if they want, can appeal this at the Club, but I don't think they have much of a case. They could then Appeal to County, who can then discuss this with the Club. I'm 99% certain the County will back the club, unless there is information we are missing. When we transitioned to WHS, at the meetings with England Golf, EG made it clear that Clubs should monitor and adjust handicaps where suspect behaviour is suspected, and at EG level, they said they would generally give the Club their full support (assuming the Club was not being completely unreasonable)

 

[Swango1980]

Some guidance if possible

We have 4 members where it is thought that they are artificially keeping their handicaps high in order to complete (and win) club 4BBB comps and also external Opens (where they have been prolific and won circa 80% where they've entered). It is thought a few of them have a difference of around 10 shots between their PH and ability.

One example below from their EG record..

View attachment 53294

How would be best to address? The last comp they won as a 4 -ball, the entire room jeered them...

How frequently do they submit these GP scores, are the dates close together?

I'm not sure I've ever seen an example of such a steady, consistent golfer who shoots scores in the high 90's