Good time for skill and nation building

[PJ87]

So should we stop paying them?
We pay a whole raft of working benefits, should they all be abolished and the minimum wage be raised. That's ok if the companies having to pay higher wages get tax breaks and can pass the costs on to us consumers, or would you be happier for employers to all go bust, that would be great for employment.

The tax credit system has breed an unhealthy dependant on paying poor wages rather than fair wages.

We the customers will never be happy with paying 1p more for anything yet to be a more stable and ironically cost us less in taxes if we paid more for products allowing people to be paid more and reducing these credits completely it would be better off for everyone.

However we live in a selfish world when £5 off a kettle is worth more than a fairer system .. and taking the higher benefit rate away from those on the bread line (the £20 top up brought in for covid) is more acceptable than chasing the big boys for tax ..

Fraud costs this country 2 billion a year but it's more fashionable to turn everyone against the strugglers and say they are the problem.

 

[SocketRocket]

(I'm not clear what point you're trying to make, Housing benefit and JSA are all state benefits surely we should be trying to get people into jobs so they don't need benefits.)

That would have to be well paid jobs, because the majority of benefit claimants are already in work.
Increase the stock of local authority housing so that housing benefit goes to the local authority keeping our council tax bills down and re-directing that "money for doing no work" to where it will benefit our local communities with a long term beneficial effect.
Poor people are just too easy a target, have no political clout and are the last group of people who can be called vile names with impunity.

I can't see how that will work. New houses cost money that will be paid by tax, paying higher wages costs money that will be passed to the consumer, how much more of your wages do you want to be taken from you.

We need to care for people who genuinely can't look after themselves but to deny that there are a large number who do nothing to help themselves is naive to the extreme. Also two wrongs don't make a right so I'm quite aware of the companies who don't pay enough tax etc, all of them need to be targeted to let the hard working keep more of their wages and the country prosper.

 

[SocketRocket]

The tax credit system has breed an unhealthy dependant on paying poor wages rather than fair wages.

We the customers will never be happy with paying 1p more for anything yet to be a more stable and ironically cost us less in taxes if we paid more for products allowing people to be paid more and reducing these credits completely it would be better off for everyone.

However we live in a selfish world when £5 off a kettle is worth more than a fairer system .. and taking the higher benefit rate away from those on the bread line (the £20 top up brought in for covid) is more acceptable than chasing the big boys for tax ..

Fraud costs this country 2 billion a year but it's more fashionable to turn everyone against the strugglers and say they are the problem.

I repeat, two wrongs don't make a right. Clamp down on all who defraud the system.

 

[Voyager EMH]

I can't see how that will work. New houses cost money that will be paid by tax, paying higher wages costs money that will be passed to the consumer, how much more of your wages do you want to be taken from you.

We need to care for people who genuinely can't look after themselves but to deny that there are a large number who do nothing to help themselves is naive to the extreme. Also two wrongs don't make a right so I'm quite aware of the companies who don't pay enough tax etc, all of them need to be targeted to let the hard working keep more of their wages and the country prosper.

By re-directing some of the vast amount of housing benefit (money for doing no work that goes to property owners) back to the local authorities will help fund the house building and the rental income from those properties then keeps our council tax bills down. Long term near-zero cost to tax payers.

I don't deny it. They need help and direction towards a better life.



A few years out of date, but stills gives the general picture. The unemployed get the tiniest slice of benefits. Much of that money goes to utilities and supermarkets. Re-directing some of the huge amount of housing benefit away from the wealthy and back to local authorities makes perfect sense to me. There are plenty of other ways for wealthy property owners to make money from money without being given a state handout.

 

[Kellfire]

This is one of those threads where those who have been fortunate in life can often show themselves up to be incredibly callous and unforgiving of those who got a raw deal.

 

[PJ87]

This is one of those threads where those who have been fortunate in life can often show themselves up to be incredibly callous and unforgiving of those who got a raw deal.

I've had this debate before on other forums. So many outraged with those at the bottom getting that extra £20 a week or the free school meals ... The "scroungers".. I honestly can't be bothered to go through the figures again of max benefit etc etc but it was so tight to live off with all the benefits people could get that tbh I don't care about the minority of people who play the system .. sod trying to live off that ..

We seem to be conditioned to resent people with more than us and also to resent those who get less than us being helped out.

It's a sad world.

I'd rather just focus on what I get and if someone needs help fair enough ..

 

[Mudball]

(I'm not clear what point you're trying to make, Housing benefit and JSA are all state benefits surely we should be trying to get people into jobs so they don't need benefits.)

That would have to be well paid jobs, because the majority of benefit claimants are already in work.
Increase the stock of local authority housing so that housing benefit goes to the local authority keeping our council tax bills down and re-directing that "money for doing no work" to where it will benefit our local communities with a long term beneficial effect.
Poor people are just too easy a target, have no political clout and are the last group of people who can be called vile names with impunity.

We are digressing from the topic... but how does increasing council ownership v/s private landlords change the pic. Either way it will cost the govt either in (high capital + low monthly) or (no capital + higher monthly rent). So a case of left pocket or right pocket for the govt. You could think of rent control for private landlords.

Question > how does housing impact skill building ?

 

[Hobbit]

But in a world where working tax credits are a thing as a way for companies to get away with paying poor wages and using state money to prop them up

There’s a element of truth in what you say but it’s also a backhanded way of subsidising industries who struggle to compete with cheap labour costs in the Far East.

 

[rudebhoy]

This is one of those threads where those who have been fortunate in life can often show themselves up to be incredibly callous and unforgiving of those who got a raw deal.

Totally agree. I used to get wound up by the sporting wing of UKIP on here, decided it wasn't worth it, and now try to avoid getting sucked into the "debate".

 

[Mudball]

This is one of those threads where those who have been fortunate in life can often show themselves up to be incredibly callous and unforgiving of those who got a raw deal.

Can i say that was a bit lazy sweeping generalisation. also does not add to the discussion around how do we build back better (or whatever is the latest catchphrase). This is a golf forum, so you are expecting forumites to be rich white middle class men from the South (see what generalisation does)

I've had this debate before on other forums. So many outraged with those at the bottom getting that extra £20 a week or the free school meals ... The "scroungers".. I honestly can't be bothered to go through the figures again of max benefit etc etc but it was so tight to live off with all the benefits people could get that tbh I don't care about the minority of people who play the system .. sod trying to live off that ..

We seem to be conditioned to resent people with more than us and also to resent those who get less than us being helped out.

It's a sad world.

I'd rather just focus on what I get and if someone needs help fair enough ..

I seriously did not get what the whole noise was about. It must be me. When i was younger, i was an out and out capitalistic guy. As I get older and have seen a bit of the world, i am more socialist in my views. I just cant see the what was wrong in providing some additional support during unprecedented times or ensuring a child does not go hungry while out of school...

 

[Voyager EMH]

We are digressing from the topic... but how does increasing council ownership v/s private landlords change the pic. Either way it will cost the govt either in (high capital + low monthly) or (no capital + higher monthly rent). So a case of left pocket or right pocket for the govt. You could think of rent control for private landlords.

Question > how does housing impact skill building ?

Local authorities are well placed to be working hand in hand with educators to create opportunities for apprenticeships in building trades - brickies, chippies , sparkies, painters and decorators. This will be ongoing with an increasing stock of housing with regards to maintenance of those properties as an appreciating asset.

 

[PJ87]

Can i say that was a bit lazy sweeping generalisation. also does not add to the discussion around how do we build back better (or whatever is the latest catchphrase). This is a golf forum, so you are expecting forumites to be rich white middle class men from the South (see what generalisation does)



I seriously did not get what the whole noise was about. It must be me. When i was younger, i was an out and out capitalistic guy. As I get older and have seen a bit of the world, i am more socialist in my views. I just cant see the what was wrong in providing some additional support during unprecedented times or ensuring a child does not go hungry while out of school...

The way I see it.. I don't use the benefit system ATM because I am very fortunate to be in a stable job etc. However I never know if I will need it one day anything could happen

I don't see any issue with people getting help , could easily be in that situation

Let's face it I'm fortunate because I was born near London, litterally wouldn't have my job elsewhere .. same as people seeking asylum over here. I have no issue. I'm just lucky again because I was born in England

Can't help where your born.

 

[Neilds]

Local authorities are well placed to be working hand in hand with educators to create opportunities for apprenticeships in building trades - brickies, chippies , sparkies, painters and decorators. This will be ongoing with an increasing stock of housing with regards to maintenance of those properties as an appreciating asset.

But we can't build more housing as all the nimbies/golfers/eco warriors are opposing 'their' land being built on

 

[SocketRocket]

The way I see it.. I don't use the benefit system ATM because I am very fortunate to be in a stable job etc. However I never know if I will need it one day anything could happen

I don't see any issue with people getting help , could easily be in that situation

Let's face it I'm fortunate because I was born near London, litterally wouldn't have my job elsewhere .. same as people seeking asylum over here. I have no issue. I'm just lucky again because I was born in England

Can't help where your born.

No one has suggested we shouldn't look after the genuine in need of help, have they? It's always the same in these debates, if anyone suggests some people are working the benefit system some start accusing you of being a heartless, wealthy, callous, Right wing, UKIP card carrying poor hater. It just kills off any sensible debate.

 

[SocketRocket]

Totally agree. I used to get wound up by the sporting wing of UKIP on here, decided it wasn't worth it, and now try to avoid getting sucked into the "debate".

I believe you rent a property, it would be so easy to throw lazy insults your way. Try reading what people actually say as opposed to what your prejudice morphs it into.

You managed to suck yourself into this one ?

 

[Deleted member 23270]

The way I see it.. I don't use the benefit system ATM because I am very fortunate to be in a stable job etc.

You have children? What about children's allowance and child care or whatever it's called these day? They are benefits.

 

[funkycoldmedina]

No one has suggested we shouldn't look after the genuine in need of help. It's always the same in these debates, if anyone suggests some people are working the benefit system some start accusing you of being a heartless, wealthy, callous, Right wing, UKIP card carrying poor hater. It just kills of any sensible debate.

The problem is that through our media we're conditioned that there a feckless, workshy scroungers everywhere because the spotlight is constantly in them whereas aggressive tax avoiders and companies and industries who are reliant on paying low wages are never highlighted in the same way.
I work in the skills and training world, apprenticeships in England are on the rise because employers and young people who don't want debt are demanding them. The issue with all these things is consistent funding streams that all parties can rely on. Governments off all colour tend to get initiatives off the ground then change tack.
At the moment lorry drivers are in vogue but that means other good quality initiatives that are already running get defunded or postponed. Employers then get turned off apprenticeships.

 

[PJ87]

You have children? What about children's allowance and child care or whatever it's called these day? They are benefits.

Not entitled to child benefit I'd have to pay it all back if I claimed it, as I said I'm fortunate to be in position I am.

 

[Voyager EMH]

So there we have it folks. We need to move as many people as possible from the £2.4 billion unwaged group into the £29.9 billion low-waged group and this will solve a massive problem with the benefits system. Except it won't.
Housing benefit is the biggest "problem" that needs to be addressed.
This goes hand in hand with the need for affordable housing and more reasonably priced decent accommodation for poor people.

Yes you may describe people as "lazy scrounging leeches" if you so choose. Believe me, such people can be found in the wealthiest echelons of our society. They will have the power to fight back if you call them vile names, however. So watch out. You may still be disparaging to the poor with impunity in the meantime - I hope that will change sooner rather than later.

 

[rudebhoy]

I believe you rent a property, it would be so easy to throw lazy insults your way. Try reading what people actually say as opposed to what your prejudice morphs it into.

You managed to suck yourself into this one ?

I rent a holiday home. To holidaymakers. It's how I supplement my pension. No-one is paying me housing benefit.

The nasty sneering tone of your response (not for the first time) reaffirms my decision to make a conscious effort to avoid this kind of discussion. So, feel free to fire off your repertoire of lazy insults, I won't be responding. It does amuse me though that you have beliefs, while those who don't agree with you have prejudices