Good time for skill and nation building

williamalex1

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Sadly " some " youngsters don't have the same work ethics/ethos as previous generations.
I know some actually think that having a couple of kids as a single parent is the way to go.
Some are quite happy barely surviving claiming the benefits available.
Some take up spaces at university taking multiple courses over many years, with no intention of ever making a career out of them.
 

BiMGuy

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Sadly " some " youngsters don't have the same work ethics/ethos as previous generations.
I know some actually think that having a couple of kids as a single parent is the way to go.
Some are quite happy barely surviving claiming the benefits available.
Some take up spaces at university taking multiple courses over many years, with no intention of ever making a career out of them.
It was ever thus.
 

Mudball

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Is it time to bring back mandatory conscription?

A friend of mine from up north was the only guy from his family who escaped and possibly the few from his area/school. He joined the Army and worked his way around. Saw action and then went the intel route.

Today he is on a 6 figure pay as cyber security leaders in the city.

His ticket was the forces. Got him out of his rut he was stuck in. Unfortunately his siblings still there..
 

larmen

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These people can't be fast tracked into being productive doing a few weeks on a training course for a few £k.
I don’t really understand that, do people pay to learn a trade?

In Germany when doing an apprenticeship, usually 3 years, you are being paid a fairly low wage, might be 700€ ‘Ausbildungsentschädigung’ a month just to put a figure on it. In this time you are being trained by a business as well as a school. After the time you get a certificate that you are a plumber/baker/secretary/branch banker/police officer/hairdresser/nurse/warehouse worker/office worker/dentist assistant/… a wide variety of fields.
There are usually more applications than positions in some fields.

But it is set out in the school system already. After 6 years you pick your track. 9 years basic school often leading to trade, 10 years middle school often leading to office career, or 13 years upper school leading to university. Times might have changed in the last 25 years.
They don’t have the situation where at the end of school everyone is doing A levels and everyone wants to go to university.

Also university fees, I topped out at 120 DM in my final year. Next year would have been about 65€ if I had to do one more.
 

SocketRocket

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Is it time to bring back mandatory conscription?

A friend of mine from up north was the only guy from his family who escaped and possibly the few from his area/school. He joined the Army and worked his way around. Saw action and then went the intel route.

Today he is on a 6 figure pay as cyber security leaders in the city.

His ticket was the forces. Got him out of his rut he was stuck in. Unfortunately his siblings still there..
Not sure if the armed forces would welcome it but maybe some type of national service where you worked in the community for a year to eighteen months improving the environment or helping vulnerable people.
 

SocketRocket

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I don’t really understand that, do people pay to learn a trade?

In Germany when doing an apprenticeship, usually 3 years, you are being paid a fairly low wage, might be 700€ ‘Ausbildungsentschädigung’ a month just to put a figure on it. In this time you are being trained by a business as well as a school. After the time you get a certificate that you are a plumber/baker/secretary/branch banker/police officer/hairdresser/nurse/warehouse worker/office worker/dentist assistant/… a wide variety of fields.
There are usually more applications than positions in some fields.

But it is set out in the school system already. After 6 years you pick your track. 9 years basic school often leading to trade, 10 years middle school often leading to office career, or 13 years upper school leading to university. Times might have changed in the last 25 years.
They don’t have the situation where at the end of school everyone is doing A levels and everyone wants to go to university.

Also university fees, I topped out at 120 DM in my final year. Next year would have been about 65€ if I had to do one more.
I believe in Germany people who graduate in certain fields first carry out an apprenticeship then go to university. They tend to graduate older as they do the apprenticeship first but are very skilled and employable after Uni.
 

Voyager EMH

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1. Sadly " some " youngsters don't have the same work ethics/ethos as previous generations.
2. I know some actually think that having a couple of kids as a single parent is the way to go.
3. Some are quite happy barely surviving claiming the benefits available.
4. Some take up spaces at university taking multiple courses over many years, with no intention of ever making a career out of them.

Apart from point 2, this sounds like someone very wealthy that I knew.
Parents set them up with a house to live in and two more to rent out. They lived off the rental income (the housing benefit of the tenants, ie tax-payers money) and never needed to work to earn a wage, did some studying and some charity work, but generally had a really good time.
So some poor people have the same "ethic" as the seriously wealthy, then. Wonder where they got the idea?

I don't disagree with the points you made, they are the truth, but I don't believe in "blaming" the poorest in society for a failing system of that society. There are errors in all echelons.
 

BiMGuy

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I don’t really understand that, do people pay to learn a trade?

Depends on what you call a trade. But in essence, yes they do.

If you don't leave school and go into an apprenticeship, and want to learn a trade or new skill as an adult. Then typically you would have to pay for the courses yourself.
 

SocketRocket

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Apart from point 2, this sounds like someone very wealthy that I knew.
Parents set them up with a house to live in and two more to rent out. They lived off the rental income (the housing benefit of the tenants, ie tax-payers money) and never needed to work to earn a wage, did some studying and some charity work, but generally had a really good time.
So some poor people have the same "ethic" as the seriously wealthy, then. Wonder where they got the idea?

I don't disagree with the points you made, they are the truth, but I don't believe in "blaming" the poorest in society for a failing system of that society. There are errors in all echelons.
I doubt if there are many like that.
 
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The issue is living off benefits is now a career choice. The system is broken. I worked over 40 years before losing my job. Because I was sensible and planned ahead I'm not entitled to a penny in benefits but if I'd pissed it all up the wall I would be. Migrants stepping off dinghies at Dover are entitled to more than me.
 

SocketRocket

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Scale. Housing benefit (the money that goes to the property owners) costs us 10 times the amount of all Jobseekers allowances.
Yes, people that rent houses expect to get some money from those living in them. Wherever these people live will cost money and it's the hard working that pay for it, or do you think it's Governments money.

I'm not clear what point you're trying to make, Housing benefit and JSA are all state benefits surely we should be trying to get people into jobs so they don't need benefits.
 

pauljames87

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Yes, people that rent houses expect to get some money from those living in them. Wherever these people live will cost money and it's the hard working that pay for it, or do you think it's Governments money.

I'm not clear what point you're trying to make, Housing benefit and JSA are all state benefits surely we should be trying to get people into jobs so they don't need benefits.

But in a world where working tax credits are a thing as a way for companies to get away with paying poor wages and using state money to prop them up
 

Voyager EMH

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Yes, people that rent houses expect to get some money from those living in them. Wherever these people live will cost money and it's the hard working that pay for it, or do you think it's Governments money.

I'm not clear what point you're trying to make, Housing benefit and JSA are all state benefits surely we should be trying to get people into jobs so they don't need benefits.
I think I covered that with "costs us".
Housing benefit, or rent paid from wages that goes to property owners, is "money for doing no work" and is absolutely vast compared with unemployment benefits paid to poor people that just covers keeping them alive.
I understand the scale of this and where the money comes from and where it goes to ever since I first read "Inequality in Britain" by Frank Field as a teenager in the 1970s.
I have a copy of "Capital in the 21st Century" by Thomas Picketty but not started it yet.
 

Voyager EMH

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(I'm not clear what point you're trying to make, Housing benefit and JSA are all state benefits surely we should be trying to get people into jobs so they don't need benefits.)

That would have to be well paid jobs, because the majority of benefit claimants are already in work.
Increase the stock of local authority housing so that housing benefit goes to the local authority keeping our council tax bills down and re-directing that "money for doing no work" to where it will benefit our local communities with a long term beneficial effect.
Poor people are just too easy a target, have no political clout and are the last group of people who can be called vile names with impunity.
 

SocketRocket

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But in a world where working tax credits are a thing as a way for companies to get away with paying poor wages and using state money to prop them up
So should we stop paying them?
We pay a whole raft of working benefits, should they all be abolished and the minimum wage be raised. That's ok if the companies having to pay higher wages get tax breaks and can pass the costs on to us consumers, or would you be happier for employers to all go bust, that would be great for employment.
 
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