Good time for skill and nation building

[Mudball]

However you could afford it by definition, as you could have not had it and waited with the NHS like anyone else

If you add up the actual costs of all the premiums plus the tax you paid does it actually pay for all the ops you have over the years? Prob doesn't even cover half so I think you have done well out of it.

Ignoring the insurance bit, but focusing on the Waiting lists. There is a lack of Drs, nurses, midwives etc. We do import a lot of them from overseas. Not sure we are anywhere close to what we need.

I read somewhere that there is a demand from people who want to take up medical career, but the University can’t expand the number of seats available. No funding - yet we pay premium to get overseas staff.

 

[PJ87]

Ignoring the insurance bit, but focusing on the Waiting lists. There is a lack of Drs, nurses, midwives etc. We do import a lot of them from overseas. Not sure we are anywhere close to what we need.

I read somewhere that there is a demand from people who want to take up medical career, but the University can’t expand the number of seats available. No funding - yet we pay premium to get overseas staff.

Also takes a long time to become a doctor etc

I mean that apprenticeship I said about before not even remotely the same but won't even go close to giving us people for least 3 years and that's not something as serious as medical staff

Almost as if these things shouldn't have been rushed through during a pandemic

 

[SocketRocket]

Ignoring the insurance bit, but focusing on the Waiting lists. There is a lack of Drs, nurses, midwives etc. We do import a lot of them from overseas. Not sure we are anywhere close to what we need.

I read somewhere that there is a demand from people who want to take up medical career, but the University can’t expand the number of seats available. No funding - yet we pay premium to get overseas staff.

Poorer countries pay to train people and we poach them away rather than train our own. We should be ashamed, we need to invest in people.

 

[chrisd]

However you could afford it by definition, as you could have not had it and waited with the NHS like anyone else

If you add up the actual costs of all the premiums plus the tax you paid does it actually pay for all the ops you have over the years? Prob doesn't even cover half so I think you have done well out of it.

However you could afford it by definition, as you could have not had it and waited with the NHS like anyone else

If you add up the actual costs of all the premiums plus the tax you paid does it actually pay for all the ops you have over the years? Prob doesn't even cover half so I think you have done well out of it.

I said that it was a necessity because I could not have run my business if I'd have to rely on the NHS, not that they wouldn't have done a good job, but I couldn't have a major operation without being able to plan for it. Yes, the premiums and tax would probably cover the costs - I had insurance for about 25 years.

 

[SocketRocket]

I agree but it's not just training - we need invest in the NHS to improve the pay and conditions of those already in it. Lots of the people trained under the NHS subsequently emigrate to work in better environments such as in Australia. We need the government to properly support and sustain the NHS.

Who are poorly paid in the NHS. Can you give salary scale proof?

 

[Mudball]

Who are poorly paid in the NHS. Can you give salary scale proof?

I don’t know the financials.
While you wait for the financial answer.. there is a non-financial answer aka working conditions, progressions/opportunities , work-life balance etc.

We import a lot of skilled and trained NHS staff from Indian, Philippines etc. On a relative scale (based on purchasing power parity) a good Doctor in India is not financially worse off than a U.K. counterpart when they stay in India. All skilled ‘migrant’ are not economic migrants. They are likely to move for better work conditions, opportunities, new life style etc.

Now swap U.K. for India and Australia/Canada/US for U.K. Our trained staff move overseas for non-financial reasons. If it takes 7 years of training and working 60 hour weeks to become a qualified Dr they may choose a 40 hour shift instead.

(sweeping generalisations ? ) I was talking to a GP friend. He is a Partner but says that the young ones coming into the field choose to become locums/consultants instead. They don’t aspire to become Partners. They want choice to move around, travel, choice of work hours etc. They don’t stay in the community like the old days

 

[Hobbit]

Who are poorly paid in the NHS. Can you give salary scale proof?

Giving an accurate figure is difficult as each Trust sets its own salaries now. Once upon a time it was via the national Whitely Council rates. But just to give you an idea on what a nurse and ward sister gets.

A qualified nurse, and they are full-on degree qualified now, starts on around £22k. Sounds half decent till you realise that includes shift allowances. And then there’s the overtime rates - oh dear… not even paid at single rate. The shift pattern adopted by many Trusts is appalling, as are staffing levels. Ward Sisters start around £32k, with similar T&C’s.

Specialist Wards, like ITU, see better rates.

EDIT: pay rises since the 2008 crash would make you weep. Some years, zero. Others not even at inflation rates.

 

[SocketRocket]

Giving an accurate figure is difficult as each Trust sets its own salaries now. Once upon a time it was via the national Whitely Council rates. But just to give you an idea on what a nurse and ward sister gets.

A qualified nurse, and they are full-on degree qualified now, starts on around £22k. Sounds half decent till you realise that includes shift allowances. And then there’s the overtime rates - oh dear… not even paid at single rate. The shift pattern adopted by many Trusts is appalling, as are staffing levels. Ward Sisters start around £32k, with similar T&C’s.

Specialist Wards, like ITU, see better rates.

EDIT: pay rises since the 2008 crash would make you weep. Some years, zero. Others not even at inflation rates.

I found this on the Nurses.uk site:

"What Is The Average Wage For A UK Nurse In 2021?
A question we’re often asked is: what is the average wage of a UK Nurse?
It’s something everyone from aspiring nurses to qualified nurses in other countries are eager to understand.
Finding an ‘average’ is tricky, for a number of reasons.
UK Nurses can work in the NHS or the private sector and pay can vary greatly between the sectors. And within the NHS, pay alters according to experience and professional development.
Various job boards and recruitment sites that track the salaries of jobs they post suggest the average wage of a UK Nurse is somewhere around the £33,000 to £35,000 a year mark.
Interestingly, more than 53% of Adult Nurses are between the age of 41 and 60. And while some people do become Nurses in their 40s and beyond, we also know that last year 67% of newly qualified Nurses were under the age of 30.
That suggests the average Nurse has at least 5 years’ experience, which corresponds with the £33,000 to £35,000 range.
In 2018, The Royal College of Nursing calculated the average weekly pay for an NHS Nurse as being £642, and annually, our figure of £33,384.
This figure fits with the averages estimated on job boards, and our own understanding of NHS profiles taken from the NMC’s annual register.
It doesn’t necessarily reflect private sector pay but given that the vast majority of Nurses work in the NHS, this figure seems the most reliable available."

 

[PJ87]

I found this on the Nurses.uk site:

"What Is The Average Wage For A UK Nurse In 2021?
A question we’re often asked is: what is the average wage of a UK Nurse?
It’s something everyone from aspiring nurses to qualified nurses in other countries are eager to understand.
Finding an ‘average’ is tricky, for a number of reasons.
UK Nurses can work in the NHS or the private sector and pay can vary greatly between the sectors. And within the NHS, pay alters according to experience and professional development.
Various job boards and recruitment sites that track the salaries of jobs they post suggest the average wage of a UK Nurse is somewhere around the £33,000 to £35,000 a year mark.
Interestingly, more than 53% of Adult Nurses are between the age of 41 and 60. And while some people do become Nurses in their 40s and beyond, we also know that last year 67% of newly qualified Nurses were under the age of 30.
That suggests the average Nurse has at least 5 years’ experience, which corresponds with the £33,000 to £35,000 range.
In 2018, The Royal College of Nursing calculated the average weekly pay for an NHS Nurse as being £642, and annually, our figure of £33,384.
This figure fits with the averages estimated on job boards, and our own understanding of NHS profiles taken from the NMC’s annual register.
It doesn’t necessarily reflect private sector pay but given that the vast majority of Nurses work in the NHS, this figure seems the most reliable available."

33-36k as an average for a nurse which is a highly skilled job I'd say is underpaid for the work they do, the shifts they do aswell

Say 40-45 would be a much fairer reflection to start appreciating what they bring minimum

 

[Lord Tyrion]

33-36k as an average for a nurse which is a highly skilled job I'd say is underpaid for the work they do, the shifts they do aswell

Say 40-45 would be a much fairer reflection to start appreciating what they bring minimum

Don't discount the value of the pension, job security and the ability to take early retirement. You need to look at the whole package not just the headline salary.

Edit : incidentally, I found this which actually lays out the various pay scales https://www.nurses.co.uk/careers-hub/nursing-pay-guide/

 

[PJ87]

Don't discount the value of the pension, job security and the ability to take early retirement. You need to look at the whole package not just the headline salary.

Whilst that is correct it's still far too low.. early retirement still? Hasn't the law changed now

I stand by my statement 45 would be about right

Or go work on a station gateline for lu .. 32k similar benefits to those stated

Nurses are underpaid

 

[Hobbit]

I found this on the Nurses.uk site:

"What Is The Average Wage For A UK Nurse In 2021?
A question we’re often asked is: what is the average wage of a UK Nurse?
It’s something everyone from aspiring nurses to qualified nurses in other countries are eager to understand.
Finding an ‘average’ is tricky, for a number of reasons.
UK Nurses can work in the NHS or the private sector and pay can vary greatly between the sectors. And within the NHS, pay alters according to experience and professional development.
Various job boards and recruitment sites that track the salaries of jobs they post suggest the average wage of a UK Nurse is somewhere around the £33,000 to £35,000 a year mark.
Interestingly, more than 53% of Adult Nurses are between the age of 41 and 60. And while some people do become Nurses in their 40s and beyond, we also know that last year 67% of newly qualified Nurses were under the age of 30.
That suggests the average Nurse has at least 5 years’ experience, which corresponds with the £33,000 to £35,000 range.
In 2018, The Royal College of Nursing calculated the average weekly pay for an NHS Nurse as being £642, and annually, our figure of £33,384.
This figure fits with the averages estimated on job boards, and our own understanding of NHS profiles taken from the NMC’s annual register.
It doesn’t necessarily reflect private sector pay but given that the vast majority of Nurses work in the NHS, this figure seems the most reliable available."

The figure quoted is for a Band 6 grade with at least 5 years experience. A newly qualified, Band 1 earns £18k.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Whilst that is correct it's still far too low.. early retirement still? Hasn't the law changed now

I stand by my statement 45 would be about right

Or go work on a station gateline for lu .. 32k similar benefits to those stated

Nurses are underpaid

My regular Saturday pp wife is taking early retirement in December after her 55th birthday. Not sure you get many going through to 65.

The pay scales in the attachment show there is good progression possible if you are so inclined. The average others have quoted is a good wage outside of London, who knows what a good wage is there?

Nearly 50% of the NHS budget goes on salaries. If you want to jack up the average to that degree then something has to give elsewhere. That's part of the conundrum.

 

[PJ87]

My regular Saturday pp wife is taking early retirement in December after her 55th birthday. Not sure you get many going through to 65.

The pay scales in the attachment show there is good progression possible if you are so inclined. The average others have quoted is a good wage outside of London, who knows what a good wage is there?

Nearly 50% of the NHS budget goes on salaries. If you want to jack up the average to that degree then something has to give elsewhere. That's part of the conundrum.

The average Nurse salary in London is £37,269. This is 8.0% more than the average national salary for Nurse jobs. The average London Nurse salary is 17% less than the average salary across London.
The average advertised salary for a Nurse in London is 17% below the average salary for all jobs in London which is £44,689.
Nurse vacancies in London have gone down 1.4% year-on-year. Currently there are 5,410 London Nurse jobs.
Average salaries for Nurse jobs in London have gone down 1.4% year-on-year, compared to a change of 9.4% for all jobs in London and -1.3% for Nurse jobs nationwide.

 

[PJ87]

My regular Saturday pp wife is taking early retirement in December after her 55th birthday. Not sure you get many going through to 65.

The pay scales in the attachment show there is good progression possible if you are so inclined. The average others have quoted is a good wage outside of London, who knows what a good wage is there?

Nearly 50% of the NHS budget goes on salaries. If you want to jack up the average to that degree then something has to give elsewhere. That's part of the conundrum.

Cut majority of middle management that's not required and increase pay to front line .. always avoided by anyone working out cuts as it's their job that goes

 

[Lord Tyrion]

The average Nurse salary in London is £37,269. This is 8.0% more than the average national salary for Nurse jobs. The average London Nurse salary is 17% less than the average salary across London.
The average advertised salary for a Nurse in London is 17% below the average salary for all jobs in London which is £44,689.
Nurse vacancies in London have gone down 1.4% year-on-year. Currently there are 5,410 London Nurse jobs.
Average salaries for Nurse jobs in London have gone down 1.4% year-on-year, compared to a change of 9.4% for all jobs in London and -1.3% for Nurse jobs nationwide.

London is nuts, certainly to everyone outside looking in ?. Whenever you look at national salaries you really need to remove London from the equation. It bears no resemblance to anywhere else.

 

[PJ87]

London is nuts, certainly to everyone outside looking in ?. Whenever you look at national salaries you really need to remove London from the equation. It bears no resemblance to anywhere else.

Well except when the increased wages mean more taxes which are taken out of London to provide more services for the rest of the country ?

 

[williamalex1]

Giving an accurate figure is difficult as each Trust sets its own salaries now. Once upon a time it was via the national Whitely Council rates. But just to give you an idea on what a nurse and ward sister gets.

A qualified nurse, and they are full-on degree qualified now, starts on around £22k. Sounds half decent till you realise that includes shift allowances. And then there’s the overtime rates - oh dear… not even paid at single rate. The shift pattern adopted by many Trusts is appalling, as are staffing levels. Ward Sisters start around £32k, with similar T&C’s.

Specialist Wards, like ITU, see better rates.

EDIT: pay rises since the 2008 crash would make you weep. Some years, zero. Others not even at inflation rates.

And some staff have to pay to park in hospital car parks

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Well except when the increased wages mean more taxes which are taken out of London to provide more services for the rest of the country ?

Don't you worry, London does alright on the spending front. We are still waiting on a dual carriageway for the main road to Scotland up here ?

 

[SocketRocket]

The figure quoted is for a Band 6 grade with at least 5 years experience. A newly qualified, Band 1 earns £18k.

The figure is the average not the starting wage. You would expect the average to have worked more than five years and progressed up the grading system, just like in most large state organisations.