Golf Random Irritations

[Arthur Wedge]

I would be curious to see how that would turn out if it went to court (which would be my right as a member if the club actually tried to expel me for that reason)!

Nota bene: Freedom of speech is one of the most fundamental basic rights!

I don't think the club would stand a chance!

BTW, of course I am allowed to speak negatively about my employer! It just can't be humiliating or anything like that and – very important! – it has to be factual, i.e. true, and the employee should be able to prove it (for his/her own protection).

If the club have a code of conduct and follow their disciplinary process correctly what would a court do ?

As with anything it will be about context

We have banned and suspended members due to their behaviour

 

[upsidedown]

Isn’t part of the issue here is that the course is on open public land?

No , its with discrimination against 2 members and a life membership that was revoked and subsequent banning which they then flaunt and video the interactions.
Still going on

 

[Arthur Wedge]

@Arthur Wedge: I think you're seeing the issue too much in black and white. In my humble opinion, you're wrong in taking such an extreme view.

In reality, I think we are all much closer to each other than it seems.

I assume that no one here would vent their feelings online in a vulgar manner at the slightest provocation. In fact, I suspect that most people would first address any problems internally, as you wish. But if the club tried to sweep the issues under the rug, simply sit them out, or even attack me personally because of it, I see no reason to continue to follow the official channels.

Responding to this with statements such as “Then find yourself another club!” is in fact what Trump is trying to do in the US (and I very much hope he doesn't get away with it, because it would affect us all! ) and, in my humble opinion, is simply “bullying.”

My opinion was very simple and clear , it will all be about context and what’s said

If a member is being rude and abusive about a club or staff etc online or in person you would expect the club to act

No one’s freedom of speech is being removed, any policy put in place will be asking a member to act responsibly, respectfully and with good manners

If people aren’t willing to abide by a basic code of conduct then it wouldn’t be a surprise if the club don’t allow them to be a member

 

[Lord Tyrion]

On the speech issue, check your work handbook, online most likely now. I'd be staggered if there wasn't a section on social media responsibility. It's basic stuff in the modern era.

You are fully entitled to criticise your club but if they have this policy in place, they are fully entitled to ask you to leave. If your comments cause the club damage why would they want you to be part of it? Criticise internally, fill your boots that way.

 

[irip]

Isn’t part of the issue here is that the course is on open public land?

Yeah I think the member believes he is allowed to use the course as it is on public land.
I think it’s got to the stage now though where it’s just tit for tat and everyone looks a bit silly.
I was using this as an example why clubs might want to tighten up on social media use by its members.
As I said previously I think it would only be for extreme cases which hopefully should be very rare.

 

[KenL]

On the speech issue, check your work handbook, online most likely now. I'd be staggered if there wasn't a section on social media responsibility. It's basic stuff in the modern era.

You are fully entitled to criticise your club but if they have this policy in place, they are fully entitled to ask you to leave. If your comments cause the club damage why would they want you to be part of it? Criticise internally, fill your boots that way.

Write a polite letter with some constructive criticism.

 

[Lucifer MorningStar]

No , its with discrimination against 2 members and a life membership that was revoked and subsequent banning which they then flaunt and video the interactions.
Still going on

I’d argue this one is a poor example of what’s been discussed here. It’s also questionable about it being discrimination toward the 2 members.

There’s a lot to unpack with this one that goes beyond the snippets we see on SM. According to reports they were life members but that was removed due to cases of them bullying other members, there’s the argument that it’s public land etc, England golf have investigated both the club and members but couldn’t find anything definitive from either party to substantiate either claims for against them. Plus can’t get involved in public land disputes.

None of us will ever know the truth to this one, it raises questions about the public land debate as to whether clubs can stop people just rocking up and playing if the land has public right of way or access. But also the videos didn’t start as far as I’m aware whilst they were members so it’s doesn’t tally with the club can remove your membership for talking of the club negatively as that had already occurred before they started their social media campaign and if true they were bullying members then membership should absolutely been stripped off them.

 

[SteveW86]

I'm not sure that's the key to this. The individuals concerned are pretty pathetic. Anything else is a side issue/excuse for their behaviour.

Oh it’s definitely pathetic, but on the video I saw the other day they were banging on about it being public land, I’ve no idea what the back story is.

 

[Crazyface]

Captains Change Over Comp. BIG turn out. 4BB Shotgun. I put in late and was teamed up with a bloke off 27 who I knew, ish. Massive queue for the Pro shop to pay. Pro, on the busiesy day of the year has booked in some lessons, so his dad is running the shop. As nice as he is, he's easilly distracted, as I found out when I eventually got in at 9.55am. (Tee off 10am), still six of us trying to pay. I wasn't having the food, loaded with carbs no alternative so no from me, which the Pro knew, but had he told his dad? Nope. Made me feel really uncomfortable, I was for walking off, but realised I'd be leaving a bloke with no partner. Agreed a fee. Noted I was off tee no 2. Bit of a treck so set off at a brisk march, steaming. When I got there guess what. There were four already there. Great! Er where's Jez? On the 3rd. Luckilly as it's close by. . But now Double steaming! Again, luckilly we were a nice four, I knew the other two and had a nice greeting and a bit of a laugh. Won't bother you with the banter. But I was piggin' furious inside. I wasn't the only one that was wound up, I heard a few complaints around the clubhouse before the start. Flippin' Shambles, or words to that effect, were being said.

 

[timd77]

In response to the main post, it’s not black and white for me. Am I likely to spout off on Facebook etc if I wasn’t happy with something about the club where I was a member? No. I might moan about bunkers to my playing partners or in the bar, and if I felt strongly enough about it I’d maybe email the club or ask as question in the AGM.

But, I also wouldn’t be happy signing up to a club that wanted me to waive my right to moan on Facebook, because, well why do they want me to do that? What have they got to hide? What’s happened before to get to this point? And whilst I wouldn’t moan about little things like bunkers or the price of a pint, something might happen where I feel I need to vent online to warn others. Bullying, sexism or racism not being dealt with, for example (after going through the correct channels).

If it were a course I played as a one off and it was in terrible condition or staff were rude, then I’d say so in my review. But I’d also leave a good review if it was warranted.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Oh it’s definitely pathetic, but on the video I saw the other day they were banging on about it being public land, I’ve no idea what the back story is.

That's a rabbit hole you might not want to go down . Maybe save it for the depths of winter, course is closed, all football cancelled, stuck in the house .........

 

[GreiginFife]

If I ever got to the stage where I felt I had to take the time and expend the effort to go online and actively whinge about the club I was at, I’d have to seriously look in the mirror and ask why am I continuing to be a member? Why am I giving them my cash if it’s that bad?

But amongst it all, remember that freedom of speech is not freedom of consequence. Just try your free speech in a pub one night with a proper hard man and see where “I have a right to call you a ….(insert insult here) as I have freedom of speech” gets you.

Lucifer himself gives a good example, some guys decided to use their free speech right to be sexist idiots, and now it’s being pursued as a complaint that will, hopefully, see the idiots punished accordingly. Oh, I’m sure they’ll probably trot out the “you can’t infringe on my right to say what I want” line, but pretty sure that won’t wash.

 

[Oops!]

If the club have a code of conduct and follow their disciplinary process correctly what would a court do ?

As with anything it will be about context

We have banned and suspended members due to their behaviour

As I said, our views are probably not that far apart.

Based on your posts, I assumed that *any* form of public criticism was prohibited under the club rules, not just rude, possibly personal, and insolent criticism.

If, on the other hand, criticism is expressed politely and objectively, a club rule prohibiting *any* form of public criticism would not stand up in court and would be overruled for shure.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

As I said, our views are probably not that far apart.

Based on your posts, I assumed that *any* form of public criticism was prohibited under the club rules, not just rude, possibly personal, and insolent criticism.

If, on the other hand, criticism is expressed politely and objectively, a club rule prohibiting *any* form of public criticism would not stand up in court and would be overruled for shure.

I don’t believe they would be any rules baring angry sort of criticism hence why it’s always about context

 

[Imurg]

Division 1 having more players than Divs 2 and 3 put together.
Nobody seems to know why.

 

[Neilds]

Division 1 having more players than Divs 2 and 3 put together.
Nobody seems to know why.

Not possible, every body knows that lower handicap players don’t enter competitions now due to WHS

 

[Crazyface]

Players at clubs moaning about scores that are winning their 4BB comps. 43 points won ours yesterday.....off yellows. 85%, but some of the good players were out there.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Division 1 having more players than Divs 2 and 3 put together.
Nobody seems to know why.

Seems like a div breakdown neededb

 

[clubchamp98]

Players at clubs moaning about scores that are winning their 4BB comps. 43 points won ours yesterday.....off yellows. 85%, but some of the good players were out there.

44pts won ours yesterday but conditions were brutal.

No way that would win in summer.

 

[clubchamp98]

Not possible, every body knows that lower handicap players don’t enter competitions now due to WHS

Division one could be 0 to 18.

I thought divisions were flexible depending on entrants and not fixed.
So divided equally ???