Golf Random Irritations

[AussieKB]

I wish I got more shots off the forward tees.....

 

[PJ87]

I wish I got more shots off the forward tees.....

That's exactly the issue lol might play the forwards more often now for a laugh

 

[sjw]

Who cares? It's just odd isn't it. It's backwards.

I mean, I'm caring less and less the longer this conversation goes on!

Versus before that I got the less shots off the yellows than whites.

What do you mean? I assume you mean vs par, which is wrong, as per my comment earlier. All your score differentials for handicapping purposes are calculated against the course rating.

If you insist on using your "getting shots" mentality, then yes, you have "lost shots" on the yellows compared to before, and you have "lost fewer shots" on the whites than you have on the yellows, but you cannot compare one directly to the other because you haven't taken the course rating of each into account.

You will get a lower differential - and by extension, a lower handicap - if you shoot 80 off the whites than you will if you shoot 80 off the yellows, just like you always have done.

 

[Orikoru]

I mean, I'm caring less and less the longer this conversation goes on!

What do you mean? I assume you mean vs par, which is wrong, as per my comment earlier. All your score differentials for handicapping purposes are calculated against the course rating.

If you insist on using your "getting shots" mentality, then yes, you have "lost shots" on the yellows compared to before, and you have "lost fewer shots" on the whites than you have on the yellows, but you cannot compare one directly to the other because you haven't taken the course rating of each into account.

You will get a lower differential - and by extension, a lower handicap - if you shoot 80 off the whites than you will if you shoot 80 off the yellows, just like you always have done.

All of which sums up my general irritation with WHS. Far too overcomplicated, do they really expect the majority of average golfers to understand any of that? It's jargon - in layman's terms 95% of people will see it the way we do - "why do I get one more shot off yellows than whites?". Nobody is thinking about course ratings or slopes when they play golf are they? They just see the number of shots they get on the day.

 

[sjw]

All of which sums up my general irritation with WHS. Far too overcomplicated, do they really expect the majority of average golfers to understand any of that? It's jargon - in layman's terms 95% of people will see it the way we do - "why do I get one more shot off yellows than whites?". Nobody is thinking about course ratings or slopes when they play golf are they? They just see the number of shots they get on the day.

And this is why CR-Par is supposedly coming in. That is effectively already part of the handicap calculation, but by moving it earlier in the process, to the "playing handicap" stage as per the American system described before, then on the first tee, when you look up what handicap (or, as you put it, "the number of shots you get on the day"), you end up with a number which you are "allowed" to shoot over par, which is how 95% of golfers are playing now, as you rightly say

 

[PJ87]

I mean, I'm caring less and less the longer this conversation goes on!

What do you mean? I assume you mean vs par, which is wrong, as per my comment earlier. All your score differentials for handicapping purposes are calculated against the course rating.

If you insist on using your "getting shots" mentality, then yes, you have "lost shots" on the yellows compared to before, and you have "lost fewer shots" on the whites than you have on the yellows, but you cannot compare one directly to the other because you haven't taken the course rating of each into account.

You will get a lower differential - and by extension, a lower handicap - if you shoot 80 off the whites than you will if you shoot 80 off the yellows, just like you always have done.

Yet I get more shots off yellow to hit a lower CR than less shots off whites to hit a higher cr?

Yellow is 69.6 white 71.8

So makes even less sense no? Unless they were same CR.

I haven't lost shots off yellows that's remained the same. It's the white that has dropped below them now

 

[Bdill93]

Yet I get more shots off yellow to hit a lower CR than less shots off whites to hit a higher cr?

Yellow is 69.6 white 71.8

So makes even less sense no? Unless they were same CR.

I haven't lost shots off yellows that's remained the same. It's the white that has dropped below them now

What does a +4 index handicapper get on the same tees? Just interested to see if the points above work in real terms?

 

[PJ87]

What does a +4 index handicapper get on the same tees? Just interested to see if the points above work in real terms?

Quick sums say

Off yellows (cr 69.6) the plus 4 would be off 3.96

Off whites (cr 71.8) the same person would be off 3.92

So each time they would give the course 4 shots but to achieve "course rating" would be harder off the whites no? As it's 2 shots more

 

[IanM]

You can debate the rights and wrongs all you like, but It is some achievement to implement a handicapping system that baffles players to the extent it has! ( As evidenced above, )

 

[PJ87]

You can debate the rights and wrongs all you like, but It is some achievement to implement a handicapping system that baffles players to the extent it has! ( As evidenced above, )

Still don't understand how we can apply a "world" handicap system that doesn't follow the way the USA do it .. just use their way for crying out loud

Then it's a world system

 

[Slab]

Quick sums say

Off yellows (cr 69.6) the plus 4 would be off 3.96

Off whites (cr 71.8) the same person would be off 3.92

So each time they would give the course 4 shots but to achieve "course rating" would be harder off the whites no? As it's 2 shots more

Doesn't it mean that its the yellows that are (marginally) harder as the CR is two shots less

 

[sjw]

Yet I get more shots off yellow to hit a lower CR than less shots off whites to hit a higher cr?

Yellow is 69.6 white 71.8

So makes even less sense no? Unless they were same CR.

I haven't lost shots off yellows that's remained the same. It's the white that has dropped below them now

I think you're looking at it slightly backwards, although admittedly I can't quite put my finger on where.

I have no idea what your handicap is, so I can't do exact numbers, but to achieve a score differential of 10, you'd have to shoot 79.5 off the yellows with the new ratings, and 81.7 off the whites. Ergo, you "get 2.2 shots" more on the whites. That sounds the right way around to me?

What does a +4 index handicapper get on the same tees? Just interested to see if the points above work in real terms?

A +4 handicapper, to "play to handicap" (or achieve a differential of +4), would have to shoot 65.6 off the yellows, and 67.8 off the whites. Again, 2.2 shots harder on the whites. Seems right to me.

Still don't understand how we can apply a "world" handicap system that doesn't follow the way the USA do it .. just use their way for crying out loud

Then it's a world system

The only way the American system differs is in the number you get given at the tee, in that it's vs par, rather than vs course rating. It makes more sense that way as it matches what the average golfer expects, as Orikoru was saying. The calculations for handicap are exactly the same, though.

It's important to work the calculations through (or just trust the handicap given to you at the first tee), as they do work, but if you start looking at pieces of information in isolation then things might start looking backwards, as has been the case here.

 

[PJ87]

I think you're looking at it slightly backwards, although admittedly I can't quite put my finger on where.

I have no idea what your handicap is, so I can't do exact numbers, but to achieve a score differential of 10, you'd have to shoot 79.5 off the yellows with the new ratings, and 81.7 off the whites. Ergo, you "get 2.2 shots" more on the whites. That sounds the right way around to me?



A +4 handicapper, to "play to handicap" (or achieve a differential of +4), would have to shoot 65.6 off the yellows, and 67.8 off the whites. Again, 2.2 shots harder on the whites. Seems right to me.



The only way the American system differs is in the number you get given at the tee, in that it's vs par, rather than vs course rating. It makes more sense that way as it matches what the average golfer expects, as Orikoru was saying. The calculations for handicap are exactly the same, though.

It's important to work the calculations through (or just trust the handicap given to you at the first tee), as they do work, but if you start looking at pieces of information in isolation then things might start looking backwards, as has been the case here.

.thing is if we just all used the USA way things would work a lot better imo and would be a lot simpler

I don't see why we have gone arse about face

 

[PJ87]

Doesn't it mean that its the yellows that are (marginally) harder as the CR is two shots less

Their not tho the course is 500 yards shorter and the par 3s are a lot easier off them compared

Plus a lower CR means easier

The blacks are 74 cr ..

 

[sjw]

.thing is if we just all used the USA way things would work a lot better imo and would be a lot simpler

I don't see why we have gone arse about face

At the end of the day, if you're playing against the course, if you put in low scores you get a lower handicap and if you put in high scores, you get a higher one, no matter the rating or the slope of the course. It doesn't matter what your playing handicap is, it's about gross score.

And if you're playing against someone else, the number of shots you get or give is the same regardless of if you do "our way" or the "USA way", because everyone's handicaps would just be adjusted by the same constant (CR-Par).

Anyway, I'm done derailing this thread now, you'll all be pleased to hear. Just play your best golf and your handicap will sort itself out, regardless of tees

 

[Slab]

Their not tho the course is 500 yards shorter and the par 3s are a lot easier off them compared

Plus a lower CR means easier

The blacks are 74 cr ..

It likely is for some players, others might find the yellows more difficult if they have to lay up etc due to course hazards
Suddenly the advantage of 500 yards shorter is eroded... but they still need to get round in 2 shots fewer from the yellows whereas if they'd played white they at least 'get those 2 shots'

 

[AussieKB]

Stop calling it a World Handicapping System.

 

[PJ87]

It likely is for some players, others might find the yellows more difficult if they have to lay up etc due to course hazards
Suddenly the advantage of 500 yards shorter is eroded... but they still need to get round in 2 shots fewer from the yellows whereas if they'd played white they at least 'get those 2 shots'

My understanding of cr is lower CR is easier than higher cr

Because it replaces SSS

So to get "par" on whites you need to hit 72 on yellows you need to hit 70

Where as blacks you need 74

 

[Slab]

My understanding of cr is lower CR is easier than higher cr

Because it replaces SSS

I'd probably go along with that but suggest its not easier but more playable. I def find it more playable moving forward a tee box but my PBs from the two tee boxes are only one shot apart while my playing handicap is a 3 shot difference

Off scratch the yellows should be easier, but with a handicap dictating the the round score (nett or pts) then the white and yellows should present the same level of ease/difficulty in relation to handicap players

 

[PJ87]

I'd probably go along with that but suggest its not easier but more playable. I def find it more playable moving forward a tee box but my PBs from the two tee boxes are only one shot apart while my playing handicap is a 3 shot difference

Off scratch the yellows should be easier, but with a handicap dictating the the round score (nett or pts) then the white and yellows should present the same level of ease/difficulty in relation to handicap players

Unfortunately the guys I play with get Billy big balls and think we should play off blacks all time

Where as I'm of the view whites max .. black only for club champs