Golf Random Irritations

[IanM]

Folk perpetually saying their course rating is too low can be classed as an irritation! (only kidding chaps, having not played your courses or seen the rating materials)

I did a Wales Golf Course Rating Seminar recently, and there's an awful lot of stuff in the manual that gave me a much broader perspective on how it works.

 

[PJ87]

Folk perpetually saying their course rating is too low can be classed as an irritation! (only kidding chaps, having not played your courses or seen the rating materials)

I did a Wales Golf Course Rating Seminar recently, and there's an awful lot of stuff in the manual that gave me a much broader perspective on how it works.

.you see my irritation is golf England. They apply the "world" handicap stupidly. We use Americas old system and they use a new system .. so it's not the world?

My club need to stop focusing on slope and focus on course rating which for example off the blacks the par is 72 and the course rating is 74.3 which does reflect the difficulty rather than the slope which is 120

 

[Alan Clifford]

I now get 1 less shot than my handicap off the whites and one more than my handicap off the yellows lol ..so the harder tees I get a less shot (was other way round)

Fascinated by that. What are the slopes for the white and yellow tees?

 

[PJ87]

Fascinated by that. What are the slopes for the white and yellow tees?

 

[Voyager EMH]

I see nothing strange in those figures.

 

[Orikoru]

I see nothing strange in those figures.

How can it not be a mistake that someone would get more shots off the yellows than the whites? That makes absolutely no sense to me. Unless, maybe, if one of the holes is a par 5 off whites but a 4 off yellows or something like that? @pauljames87 is that the case?

 

[sunshine]

Not an outright ban, just that knee length socks required, which for me is almost the same as a ban.

I wish I'd been wearing long socks (or trousers) for my match on Friday night even though it was 28 degrees. Legs covered in horse fly and mosquito bites above the ankle. Very itchy and swollen all weekend

Don't think I could bring myself to wearing long socks though. The photos on the RSG website feature a lot of this and they all look like clowns.

 

[Voyager EMH]

How can it not be a mistake that someone would get more shots off the yellows than the whites? That makes absolutely no sense to me. Unless, maybe, if one of the holes is a par 5 off whites but a 4 off yellows or something like that? @pauljames87 is that the case?

Because you do not "get shots on a course".
You "get shots" relative to other players.
Our handicap indexes put us all on a scale or number line.
Slope Rating below 113 contract that scale and above 113 stretch it out.
Slope rating represents the "relative difference of a course" for a scratch player and a 20-handicapper (in theory)

 

[sunshine]

How can it not be a mistake that someone would get more shots off the yellows than the whites? That makes absolutely no sense to me. Unless, maybe, if one of the holes is a par 5 off whites but a 4 off yellows or something like that? @pauljames87 is that the case?

I'm not an expert in this (I'm sure the experts will be along soon to enlighten you), but...

The slope rating isn't based on par, so changing the par makes no difference.
The slope rating is relative difficulty compared to the course rating.7
If a course is easier off the yellows for a scratch golfer but not that different for a bogey golfer you will get a higher slope rating off the yellows.

Eg whites par 72, CR 72.
off yellows par 72, CR 71.
You need to shoot 1 shot lower off the yellows to have the same differential so the slope might be higher if the course isn't a shot harder for a bogey golfer.

 

[PJ87]

Because you do not "get shots on a course".
You "get shots" relative to other players.
Our handicap indexes put us all on a scale or number line.
Slope Rating below 113 contract that scale and above 113 stretch it out.
Slope rating represents the "relative difference of a course" between a scratch player and a 20-handicapper (in theory)

The last point is key! Our people don't understand that's what slope is. The reason we have a low slope isn't because they think it's easy. It's because a scratch and 20 handicap would be punished pretty equally . You lose a ball there it's tough to score . And it's not hard to lose a ball

Played in the pro am and the pro lost his ball on the si 1 and walked off with a 7 (long par 4) it wasn't one he could go right I've lost my ball let's just get the bogey

 

[Orikoru]

Because you do not "get shots on a course".
You "get shots" relative to other players.
Our handicap indexes put us all on a scale or number line.
Slope Rating below 113 contract that scale and above 113 stretch it out.
Slope rating represents the "relative difference of a course" between a scratch player and a 20-handicapper (in theory)

No matter if it's relative to other players or not, the harder the course the more shots you get, and the yellows can't really be harder than the whites can they??

If a course is easier off the yellows for a scratch golfer but not that different for a bogey golfer you will get a higher slope rating off the yellows.

Eg whites par 72, CR 72.
off yellows par 72, CR 71.
You need to shoot 1 shot lower off the yellows to have the same differential so the slope might be higher if the course isn't a shot harder for a bogey golfer.

Sorry, I just don't understand this sort of statement. Who decides that it's more relatively difficult for a scratch player than a bogey player? And how can that possibly be the case? It all just sounds like jargon to me. To my mind, any course off yellows will almost universally be easier than that same course off the whites, for any level of golfer, so for anybody to receive more shots off yellows than off whites, a mistake must have been made in the numbers.

 

[PJ87]

No matter if it's relative to other players or not, the harder the course the more shots you get, and the yellows can't really be harder than the whites can they??


Sorry, I just don't understand this sort of statement. Who decides that it's more relatively difficult for a scratch player than a bogey player? And how can that possibly be the case? It all just sounds like jargon to me. To my mind, any course off yellows will almost universally be easier than that same course off the whites, for any level of golfer, so for anybody to receive more shots off yellows than off whites, a mistake must have been made in the numbers.

Looking at some of my recent scores with the new slopes etc my handicap will go up if applied to old scores as the differentials are almost a shot higher per score

 

[Voyager EMH]

No matter if it's relative to other players or not, the harder the course the more shots you get, and the yellows can't really be harder than the whites can they??


Sorry, I just don't understand this sort of statement. Who decides that it's more relatively difficult for a scratch player than a bogey player? And how can that possibly be the case? It all just sounds like jargon to me. To my mind, any course off yellows will almost universally be easier than that same course off the whites, for any level of golfer, so for anybody to receive more shots off yellows than off whites, a mistake must have been made in the numbers.

The concept of a course being "hard" or "easy" against par is represented by Course Rating which does not alter our places on the handicap scale.
Hence "hard" courses do not increase our handicaps.
This will change as and when CR-Par comes in.

High Slope Ratings appear to "give more shots" but actually have the opposite affect for +handicappers as it causes their handicaps to reduce (go lower)

 

[PJ87]

And this is what annoys me about golf England

Above is the American system (remember this is a world handicap system)
Below is what we use.

Why on earth do we use a different system?

Just use the American one..it actually works better.

Crunching the numbers now

Off the whites would be the same as I'm off now

Yellow would be 3 shots less!

 

[Voyager EMH]

It is a shame that England Golf chose the name "Course Handicap"

I would have preferred,

1. EG Index
2. Slope Adjusted Index (instead of course handicap)
3. Handicap (instead of playing handicap)

Then we would have only one use of the word "handicap" instead of three.

 

[Alan Clifford]

I was interested to do the calculation as it seems a tad nutty!

index x slope / 113
yellow 20 x 112 / 113 = 19.82
white 20 x 111 / 113 = 19.64

112 / 113 is always bigger than 111 / 113 so white will always be less. But it doesn't matter because it's the same for everyone (well almost always the same). Unless it's mixed tees and then you have to introduce the difference in course rating. For differentials, the course ratings are in there anyway.

Personally, I find it confusing not to include the course rating in the course handicap calculation and it's not a statistic I keep in mind when playing social golf.

 

[IanM]

Who decides that it's more relatively difficult for a scratch player than a bogey player?

It is detailed in the Course Rater's Manual. Criteria such as where is the landing zones are off the tee(s) , how far away they are, how wide they are, gradient of land, where the trouble is, size and slopes of greens etc etc etc ... pretty detailed stuff that someone more conversant with it than me can explain further. I am pretty sure one the folk on here has done course ratings. I only did the intro session and am due to go out and observe a Rater next time one is done in my area.

It's not a random guess by looking out the window.

 

[PJ87]

I was interested to do the calculation as it seems a tad nutty!

index x slope / 113
yellow 20 x 112 / 113 = 19.82
white 20 x 111 / 113 = 19.64

112 / 113 is always bigger than 111 / 113 so white will always be less. But it doesn't matter because it's the same for everyone (well almost always the same). Unless it's mixed tees and then you have to introduce the difference in course rating. For differentials, the course ratings are in there anyway.

Personally, I find it confusing not to include the course rating in the course handicap calculation and it's not a statistic I keep in mind when playing social golf.

might mean I play off the yellows more going forward I need to do the sums because I need to work out what a score would equal as a score differential.... as I do whites to get lower score diff compared (say a 90 off each would be worth a better score off whites) that could all change with this tho .. might be worth playing yellows

 

[sjw]

Totally baffled reading these last few posts...

No matter if it's relative to other players or not, the harder the course the more shots you get, and the yellows can't really be harder than the whites can they??

Who said they are?

might mean I play off the yellows more going forward I need to do the sums because I need to work out what a score would equal as a score differential.... as I do whites to get lower score diff compared (say a 90 off each would be worth a better score off whites) that could all change with this tho .. might be worth playing yellows

I haven't seen you once take into account the fact that the CR for the yellows is much lower than for the whites. A differential will be lower off the yellows due to this. I can't understand how you think you get "fewer shots" from the whites.

 

[Slime]

I now get 1 less shot than my handicap off the whites and one more than my handicap off the yellows lol ..so the harder tees I get a less shot (was other way round)

Same at mine, but off the whites there are two par shortish 5s that are longish par 4s off the yellows.