General Play round, 2 people playing, 1 scoring

Voyager EMH

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Not sure what you are getting at. If the Club Committee allow players to pre register by contacting them directly, then that is up to them. The player will then be recognised as making a formal pre-registration for their round, and a score will be expected by those on Committee.

In that sense, it becomes no different to pre registration on App. Using the App, then the Committee will also expect a score, and they'll get reports to inform them about this.

Some clubs also have a sign in book at pro shop.
Is it the case then that a verbal declaration by a player to the handicap secretary to submit a general play score is valid only if the handicap secretary has chosen by whim for it to allowable?

This will then vary from club to club and at a single club when a change of handicap secretary occurs.

Can a handicap secretary change his/her mind at any given time as to allowing this or disallowing this?
 

D-S

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Is it the case then that a verbal declaration by a player to the handicap secretary to submit a general play score is valid only if the handicap secretary has chosen by whim for it to allowable?

This will then vary from club to club and at a single club when a change of handicap secretary occurs.

Can a handicap secretary change his/her mind at any given time as to allowing this or disallowing this?
I am not sure if you can necessarily characterise a procedure agreed and laid down by a committee and communicated to the membership as 'a whim'?
The procedure should be clear to all and if their is a change of committee it should be agreed to continue or changed to fit new circumstances. It is suggested that all Terms of Competition and Procedures are reviewed annually to ensure that they are still fit for purpose as people, opening hours, new rules, pandemics, wi-fi connection, phone signals etc etc. are not always the same year on year.
 

Voyager EMH

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I am not sure if you can necessarily characterise a procedure agreed and laid down by a committee and communicated to the membership as 'a whim'?
The procedure should be clear to all and if their is a change of committee it should be agreed to continue or changed to fit new circumstances. It is suggested that all Terms of Competition and Procedures are reviewed annually to ensure that they are still fit for purpose as people, opening hours, new rules, pandemics, wi-fi connection, phone signals etc etc. are not always the same year on year.
"Agreed and laid down" sounds just like "whim and declaration" to me.
We were discussing the validity of a general play score meeting the requirements of pre-registering by verbal communication of intention to a handicap secretary.

It seems to me from answers given that this can only be so if the handicap secretary has "agreed with himself" and made a declaration of his choice to make this allowable.
But he/she also reserves the right to change this "agreement, choice and declaration" at any given time.
 

Swango1980

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"Agreed and laid down" sounds just like "whim and declaration" to me.
We were discussing the validity of a general play score meeting the requirements of pre-registering by verbal communication of intention to a handicap secretary.

It seems to me from answers given that this can only be so if the handicap secretary has "agreed with himself" and made a declaration of his choice to make this allowable.
But he/she also reserves the right to change this "agreement, choice and declaration" at any given time.
Are you getting yourself confused for no apparent reason? None of us can speak generally for such a situation, as you are talking very specifically what may or may not be acceptable at one particular club, and what one handicap secretary may or may not accept as pre-registration. If we were talking about an exact golf club and their procedures, then we could discuss how valid their methodology is. But, this is a hypothetical case, where you could just keep shifting the goalposts to make an acceptable situation into an unacceptable one (i.e. agreeing pre-registration is made, and then for some reason the handicap committee member reversing their agreement for some unknown reason).

Simply put, pre-registration is required if a round is to be submitted for handicap. The various Apps have ways of allow pre-registration to occur, and provides a way to document it, so that it can be checked by handicap committee later. Many clubs will also have a sign-in sheet at the pro shop. In the past, players would have needed to sign this before playing a GP round, but now it may only be a backup for those that do not have access to the tech (although the club PSI should also allow pre-reg). Some clubs will also allow players to e-mail the handicap secretary their intent. And, some clubs may also allow a player to verbally inform the handicap secretary. I'm sure that would be a rare occurrence, as few will be in verbal contact with the handicap sec before they play. And, if a handicap sec is prepared to accept this as a method, then they need to make sure they uphold their responsibility in ensuring the score is submitted. If they don't, or reverse that "agreement", then bigger questions need to be asked of the handicap secretary
 

jim8flog

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That's all well and good, but what if you don't decide to submit a general play score until you are eating your bacon cob 30 minutes before your tee-time?
If the handicap secretary is in the clubhouse, can you merely inform him of your intention or must the pre-registering be done electronically for it to be valid?

Pre WHS and PSI screen facility to do it. We kept a a book for registering intent for a Supplementary Score in the Proshop. Cards were left in the post box outside of the office.

When the club office sec came in the to work the next day she would check the book and make sure all cards had been returned. Failure to return the card meant an automatic 0.1 increase.
 

doublebogey7

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"Agreed and laid down" sounds just like "whim and declaration" to me.
We were discussing the validity of a general play score meeting the requirements of pre-registering by verbal communication of intention to a handicap secretary.

It seems to me from answers given that this can only be so if the handicap secretary has "agreed with himself" and made a declaration of his choice to make this allowable.
But he/she also reserves the right to change this "agreement, choice and declaration" at any given time.
Firstly the Handicap Secretary should not be responsible for the procedure alone, the Rules of WHS stipulate that clubs must have a handicap committee consisting of three people who should be responsible for such procedures. Secondly any procedure should be communicated to members, as should any changes to said procedure. If that is allowing changers to be made on a whim, then that applies to everything a golf club does.
 

jim8flog

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At my club, not actually sure how it works as I don't play in the fiddles. I know they all turn up, sort themselves into groups (no draw, nor any Booking on howdidido). However, their scores all appear as a competition result afterwards on howdidido.

So, as regular organised events, I believe it is a case that by playing, you've automatically registered for the event. This is recognised by both players and handicap secretary.

However, I'm also not sure how watertight it is? For example, if a player has a bad round doesn't submit their score, do they just vanish into thin air, and no way for handicap sec to look into a penalty score? 🤔

I would have thought this sort of 'events' have a person responsible for gathering in all the cards and giving them to the office. I would have thought that person would also report a non returned card so a penalty score could be applied.

for the benefit of those that do not know
Swindles /fiddles/ roll ups - all players can be considered to have pre-registered.
 

Voyager EMH

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Firstly the Handicap Secretary should not be responsible for the procedure alone, the Rules of WHS stipulate that clubs must have a handicap committee consisting of three people who should be responsible for such procedures. Secondly any procedure should be communicated to members, as should any changes to said procedure. If that is allowing changers to be made on a whim, then that applies to everything a golf club does.
Our three man committee made an agreement to do away with on-line booking that had been introduced during Covid and communicated this to members.
There ensued much chatter amongst members and a pressure group was established to demand that the three man committee canvass opinion of the membership as to whether the full-time booking system should be kept.
After an online vote, the three man committee made a new "agreement" reversing their previous "agreement" and announced this to members.
Their original "agreement" was made on a whim, I believe.

So it would seem to me, that accepting a verbal communication as a valid form of pre-registering a general play round is a matter of choice or "whim" of the handicap sec and committee.
 

Voyager EMH

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Pre WHS and PSI screen facility to do it. We kept a a book for registering intent for a Supplementary Score in the Proshop. Cards were left in the post box outside of the office.

When the club office sec came in the to work the next day she would check the book and make sure all cards had been returned. Failure to return the card meant an automatic 0.1 increase.
I think we did exactly the same, but I never submitted a supplementary score.
I do remember marking a card for someone submitting their first three scores for handicap about 10 years ago and I did this myself when resuming golf after an absence of a few years in the 1980s.
I think the procedure was very similar, except I don't think there was any form of pre-registering in the 1980s. You merely had to write "Applying for handicap" at the top of the card and post it though letterbox of handicaps sec door.
 

Swango1980

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Our three man committee made an agreement to do away with on-line booking that had been introduced during Covid and communicated this to members.
There ensued much chatter amongst members and a pressure group was established to demand that the three man committee canvass opinion of the membership as to whether the full-time booking system should be kept.
After an online vote, the three man committee made a new "agreement" reversing their previous "agreement" and announced this to members.
Their original "agreement" was made on a whim, I believe.

So it would seem to me, that accepting a verbal communication as a valid form of pre-registering a general play round is a matter of choice or "whim" of the handicap sec and committee.
When does a whim become not a whim? Your three man Committee made a decision about the booking system. No idea if that took 2 minutes, or they discussed this over a period of days/weeks. Also don't know how much interaction they had with the other members to make that decision. However, those guys are on the Committee to make those decisions. There are many many many decisions a Committee makes that do not get shared and voted on by the rest of the golfers at the club. Call these whims if you like, but they are simply decisions they are in charge of making.

If they make some less than adequate decisions, which can happen, then this will bound to get communicated to them by members. That is exactly what has happened with your online bookings. And, if there was an issue with their pre-registration practices, then members are welcome to challenge these as well. Your Committee can then review and change if it is felt to have a better outcome.
 

Voyager EMH

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When does a whim become not a whim? Your three man Committee made a decision about the booking system. No idea if that took 2 minutes, or they discussed this over a period of days/weeks. Also don't know how much interaction they had with the other members to make that decision. However, those guys are on the Committee to make those decisions. There are many many many decisions a Committee makes that do not get shared and voted on by the rest of the golfers at the club. Call these whims if you like, but they are simply decisions they are in charge of making.

If they make some less than adequate decisions, which can happen, then this will bound to get communicated to them by members. That is exactly what has happened with your online bookings. And, if there was an issue with their pre-registration practices, then members are welcome to challenge these as well. Your Committee can then review and change if it is felt to have a better outcome.
When it has the backing of more than 50% of the members.
Committee members, if volunteers, are servants with a few hundred masters.
 

doublebogey7

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Our three man committee made an agreement to do away with on-line booking that had been introduced during Covid and communicated this to members.
There ensued much chatter amongst members and a pressure group was established to demand that the three man committee canvass opinion of the membership as to whether the full-time booking system should be kept.
After an online vote, the three man committee made a new "agreement" reversing their previous "agreement" and announced this to members.
Their original "agreement" was made on a whim, I believe.

So it would seem to me, that accepting a verbal communication as a valid form of pre-registering a general play round is a matter of choice or "whim" of the handicap sec and committee.
Yes it is clearly a matter of choice, but "whim" and choice do not have the same meaning.

Whether your committee acted on a whim or whether they believed that the membership wished to go back to the status quo as there had previousley been no clamour for a booking system only they will know. If the latter then they were wrong, but that does not mean they acted on a whim.
 

rosecott

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Our three man committee made an agreement to do away with on-line booking that had been introduced during Covid and communicated this to members.
There ensued much chatter amongst members and a pressure group was established to demand that the three man committee canvass opinion of the membership as to whether the full-time booking system should be kept.
After an online vote, the three man committee made a new "agreement" reversing their previous "agreement" and announced this to members.
Their original "agreement" was made on a whim, I believe.

So it would seem to me, that accepting a verbal communication as a valid form of pre-registering a general play round is a matter of choice or "whim" of the handicap sec and committee.

I am rather surprised that the "agreement" on such an important issue was not sent to the main Club Committee as a recommendation. The committee could then have considered whether to accept the recommendation or decide on further consultation with the membership.
 

doublebogey7

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When it has the backing of more than 50% of the members.
Committee members, if volunteers, are servants with a few hundred masters.
In your opinion, but that is not the true meaning of whim.

Committee members are elected to act in the best interests of the club not to cow to majority opinion on every decision. If that was their was their mandate then their would need to be a full members vote on everything from the colour of the walls in the bogs to selling up to a builder and everything in between.
 

Voyager EMH

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Thanks all. My question has been answered very fully. I really and truthfully did not know what the situation was regarding acceptable and not acceptable forms of pre-registering as I have no personal experience of submitting a general play score.

I take it that...

A player may verbally inform the appropriate person at a club of intention to submit a general play sore and this is a valid form of pre-registering if and only if a committee of at least three people have given this procedure due consideration and have decided between themselves that it is acceptable so to do and made members aware of this decision.
This may vary from club to club and a committee may change its mind with regard to this procedure with further due consideration and notification.

...unless I am in need of further guidance and instruction.
 

Swango1980

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Thanks all. My question has been answered very fully. I really and truthfully did not know what the situation was regarding acceptable and not acceptable forms of pre-registering as I have no personal experience of submitting a general play score.

I take it that...

A player may verbally inform the appropriate person at a club of intention to submit a general play sore and this is a valid form of pre-registering if and only if a committee of at least three people have given this procedure due consideration and have decided between themselves that it is acceptable so to do and made members aware of this decision.
This may vary from club to club and a committee may change its mind with regard to this procedure with further due consideration and notification.

...unless I am in need of further guidance and instruction.
I suspect you need to start another thread. This is not really a topic specific to pre-registration of General Play rounds. It is a discussion on how Committees set their various guidelines and procedures in running the club.

If you put it on the Expert Thread, it may well attract the eyes of a few more existing and past Committee members, who can give you additional feedback.
 

Voyager EMH

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I suspect you need to start another thread. This is not really a topic specific to pre-registration of General Play rounds. It is a discussion on how Committees set their various guidelines and procedures in running the club.

If you put it on the Expert Thread, it may well attract the eyes of a few more existing and past Committee members, who can give you additional feedback.
No thank you.

I feel sufficiently better informed with regard to validity of pre-registering a general play score and have no wish to start a thread about the machinations of committees at golf clubs.

Being 100% computer dependent with regard to the validity of a player's golf score, with no other option, is not a benefit of progress in my view.
Pre-registering by communication with a human being should have equal, if not more, validity than pre-registering by communication with a machine.

The score will of course be entered on to the computer system, but it is the "validity" of pre-registering intent that we were discussing.

I am an experienced computer user. I learnt to program in Fortran, Algol and Basic in the early 1980s.
Later on I became a Microsoft-certified Microsoft Office Master Instructor.
I am no technophobe.
I felt it important to point that out in case I was giving a false impression.
 
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Springveldt

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Being 100% computer dependent with regard to the validity of a player's golf score, with no other option, is not a benefit of progress in my view.
Up until last week that wasn't even possible if I went back up the road as the Scottish courses weren't even available in the EG app. So I guess if I ever go on a golfing holiday to Turkey/Spain/Portugal I couldn't submit a general score there even with my phone in hand unless I call back to my home club to register my intention with someone there. Obviously announcing to my playing partners isn't good enough as I could bribe them with a free beer to sign for a dodgy card.
 
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