first round new course - handicap?

[AliB]

Played at The Park yesterday. My first chance to go out with the ladies and sun shining so couldn't resist, although it was a medal! I was painfully bad on front nine (8 over my par!) but played to par on back nine including a birdie, so all in all enjoyed the day after the bad start. Company was good (played with VC and Sec - both v. companionable) who actually had poor rounds, so that technically I beat them. However I was not actually 'competing' as they decided I had to do 3 cards for new handicap.
Now having read Homer's tale of woe on the high handicapper, not sure where I stand. On yesterday's showing I'd be coming in with 28 handicap. I have been playing off 20 but would expect to go up on a new course and wouldn't be suprised if during settling in period I will bring in similar cards, or even worse.
They asked me to do cards as they weren't sure if my last club was 'affiliated.' I could have rung to check, but was happy to do cards for fresh start so went along with it. They know I have been playing in low twenties.
Turns out Woodlands is 'affiliated' Should I ask for my old hcap to be granted to me? Will they adjust anyway if I bring in lousy cards?
Not worrying too much, as their decision to ask for cards, but wondered what you people would expect to happen.

cheers

AliB

 

[USER1999]

I would expect to transfer my h/cap. This is what happened last time I changed clubs.

 

[tonto768]

As I understand it provided t you bring a proper CONGU handicap certificate from pld club new one should give you same handicap. If you continue to bring in lousy cards handicap will rise anyway so proper level will be found

 

[RGDave]

As I understand it provided you bring a proper CONGU handicap certificate from old club the new one should give you same handicap. If you continue to bring in lousy cards handicap will rise anyway so proper level will be found

This is technically correct. Of course.

The only thing I would say about this is in my experience, I'd (now) resist simply allowing the new club to take your previous h'cap. Get to know the course a little, get settled, play 3 games, hand in 3 cards and then accept your fate.

I say this through the bitter experience of being "promised" my h'cap would move back up (if it was overly low), yet finding out that actually the dozens of games played off the yellow in competitive rounds (but NON-qualifying) were simply ignored by the secretary.

Some will know my story, and others will not have one jot of sympathy. That's done with now, thankfully.

My advice would be to "negotiate" unless they simply let you hand in 3 cards and give you a number. By negotiate, what I mean is this.
If you were off 20 and have handed in 3 cards that lead to 26 or 28 (say) then allow them to put you off 20 or 22 (taking into account the previous) but insist that you can be reviewed on the next dozen cards regardless of whether they are qualifying comps or not. If you KEEP a copy of your next dozen rounds (as long as they were played holing out etc.etc.) and after those games, you are clearly not close to the 20 or 22, ask for a review. It IS within the rules.

My feeling is that all clubs should follow a procedure which is not currently adopted (to my knowledge) but is acceptable by congu. I would word it something like this.

"Players issued with an initial h'cap that is set LOWER than the best of the 3 cards (taking into account previous playing history) should be encouraged to keep copies of ALL scores returned in any game played off a measurable course. This should not include any game where concessions are part of the format. If, over a considerable period of time, it is clear that the player is considered not close enough to the allotted h'cap, then the committee may use these cards as evidence that the initial h'cap was in fact too low and adjust upwards in accordance with CONGU rule 23.3 (a)."

Simple. The onus should be on the players, but the committee ought to make this option available within the period of any yearly review (if carried out) to new members.

 

[RGDave]

Will they adjust anyway if I bring in lousy cards?

Depends on the comps you play in. If they are qualifying, you could go up 1 shot every ten games. If they are non-q, then you'll be unlikely to go anywhere.

As I've pointed out above, keep all copies just in case you need to ask for a re-think.

 

[Region3]

I think it would be much fairer if courses were given a difficulty rating, so that handicaps could be migrated from one club to another.
I suppose sss is the closest thing we have, but I'm sure there are much more difficult sss72's than the one I play on.

 

[Ethan]

In the old days, a handicap was adjusted between courses of different SSS. The same happens with the US slope system.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

To be honest I'm with Dave on this and would put three new cards in and learn the course a bit too. You'll get cut soon enough if its too high. All this dialogue and promises is open to retraction and mis-interpretation and better to start with a clean slate.

In my case I was going back to the same club albeit a different course and so my "previous" was well known hence the 20 when 28 was the correct handicap. Had I got 28 I'd have asked for a review anyway but thought as I hadn't played in a few years it was a fair assessment of where my game was.

However finding my current teacher and a lot of dedication soon saw that come back down and although I only won a medal and a stableford I got a few top threes along the way which vindicated my decision to change my swing with my teacher.

 

[bobmac]

If someone represents their club in an away match against another club, they would play off their home club handicap and be expected to play on or close to it.
How would that differ from moving to a club full time?
If I were you, I would contact your old club and ask them to forward a handicap certificate to your new club and that should be your new handicap.

 

[Imurg]

When I changed club recently I handed over my handicap certificate from the previous club and they put me off that exact handicap straight off.

Only played to it twice since then I think but there you go. Its my standard and I think it should follow me from club to club. it will soon adjust itself if I play enough qualifiers

 

[AliB]

Help!
conflicting advice here , but thanks for taking the time.
I was quite happy to start with three cards, but realised the first 2 times I'm playing (Sun and now Wed) are qulaifying comps. As I'm still a bit nervous I'm likely not to do too well, otehrwise I wouldn't worry too much (and would be quite happy to go up a couple on a new course - that's why I didn't ask to go off existing hcap at the time.
Think best thing is to talk to someone. They seem friendly enough but also v. keen for me to get cards in - I might rather take my time over it.

AliB

 

[RGDave]

If someone represents their club in an away match against another club, they would play off their home club handicap and be expected to play on or close to it.
How would that differ from moving to a club full time?

Yes. Of course, you are right.

However there are courses and there are courses. We have two notable clubs in this area and the two are like chalk and cheese. I play at the harder course and yet the SSS is lower. SSS is based (obviously) on the ability of a scratch player. SSS is not an ideal measure for mid/high players. Anyone moving from mine to the other (mid/high players) would probably bandit their way to a few early wins....if players move to mine, they are going to struggle.

What am I trying to say? Well, a h'cap should be taken at face value at first....players struggling or the opposite ought to warrant close attention by the h'cap sec.
This should include the possibility of utilising CONGUs own rules regarding adjustments "a la" annual review.

 

[viscount17]

"Players issued with an initial h'cap that is set LOWER than the best of the 3 cards (taking into account previous playing history) should be encouraged to keep copies of ALL scores returned in any game played off a measurable course. This should not include any game where concessions are part of the format. If, over a considerable period of time, it is clear that the player is considered not close enough to the allotted h'cap, then the committee may use these cards as evidence that the initial h'cap was in fact too low and adjust upwards in accordance with CONGU rule 23.3 (a)."

Simple. The onus should be on the players, but the committee ought to make this option available within the period of any yearly review (if carried out) to new members.

There's no chance of this being accepted as it is too easily understood (the only part I would change is 'over an agreed period of time').

That said, common sense (and the rules) should dictate that <u>any</u> new or transferred handicap should be subject to review and the player required to keep all cards over the review period.

 

[AliB]

That said, common sense (and the rules) should dictate that any new or transferred handicap should be subject to review and the player required to keep all cards over the review period.[\quote]
sounds like sense! - here's hoping it prevails.

AliB

 

[Earl]

If someone represents their club in an away match against another club, they would play off their home club handicap and be expected to play on or close to it.
How would that differ from moving to a club full time?

Yes. Of course, you are right.

However there are courses and there are courses. We have two notable clubs in this area and the two are like chalk and cheese. I play at the harder course and yet the SSS is lower. SSS is based (obviously) on the ability of a scratch player. SSS is not an ideal measure for mid/high players. Anyone moving from mine to the other (mid/high players) would probably bandit their way to a few early wins....if players move to mine, they are going to struggle.

What am I trying to say? Well, a h'cap should be taken at face value at first....players struggling or the opposite ought to warrant close attention by the h'cap sec.
This should include the possibility of utilising CONGUs own rules regarding adjustments "a la" annual review.

I might be wrong but i think the SSS is determined by the length of the course not the individual difficulty of the holes or par.

 

[RGDave]

I might be wrong but i think the SSS is determined by the length of the course not the individual difficulty of the holes or par.

Yes, mostly the length is the issue. Other factors are taken into consideration though.
As I was trying to point out, the difficulty of the course for the normal player is not the key issue, it's the difficulty for a scratch player.

A long course will often (mostly?) have a SSS higher than a short(er) course. However, if the long course is more open and less punishing then a mid/high h'cap player might score better.

My course is EASY for scratch players. It's a pain for normal players. Our fairways are too narrow and there a too many trees.....this doesn't bother the low guys.....it seems

 

[jammydodger]

SSS is determined as said above , its how hard a scratch/pro golfer would find the course. They take a pro out and ask him what he would do on each hole and where he would try to put his tee-shot to give best 2nd shot or whether he could just give it a wallop etc etc . They also take into account the usual things like difficulty of bunkers/chips around greens and even how easy is it to escape from trouble/trees/rough and then make a par.

ps its usually re-checked about every 3 years I think , by your county union

 

[viscount17]

I know ours (not long, few bunkers but obsessed by water) was reassessed recently (par 70 ss 68) possibly as a result of changes (tree line removed (dying pines), tees moved and another pond!). They are now in the process of lengthening the longest Par 5 by around 50 yards which should bring the ditch into play for the second shot (perhaps to regain an SS of 69?)

(for those that know it, the new tee for 17 is tucked at the back of the 16th green)