6535
Newbie
I thought cat 1 golfers were allowed to submit a limited number [5 ] supplementary cards per year ?
No. I was told today the only way you Cat1 can post supplementaries is if your hc lapsed.
Fee for Supplementary Card
- Thread starter Swango1980
- Start date
No. I was told today the only way you Cat1 can post supplementaries is if your hc lapsed.
rulefan
Tour Winner
I haven't got the rules with me but it only needs 8 I think
rulefan
Tour Winner
Cheats will always cheat. Whatever rules you make cheats will, on principle, try to beat them
I fact I reckon I can game Congu more easily and effectively than WHS. But give me a bit of time.........
rosecott
Money List Winner
Billy (WilliamAlex) is in Scotland. Are you? There are differences.
In England, if you start the year without "c" status, you can submit 3 supps to regain it. You may submit them between September and December to ensure "c" status for the following year.
Last edited:
rulefan
Tour Winner
I don't think anyone yet has grasped what the soft cap will do nor what will be available to the handicap sec.
Swango1980
Well-known member
Under the current system though, you can shoot as bad a score as you wish, it will only ever get you 0.1 back. To get the sort of increases I mentioned above, you'd have to submit 50 to 60 bad supplementary scores in current system to match my WHS example. Now, that would be obvious. And, even if they did that, their handicap would likely get hammered when they shoot good scores in comps, especially if they get ESR.
My prediction. You'll get golfers who usually shoot bad scores because their mentality means they don't fight for a score once their head goes down. But, every now and then, they manage to not lose it, and post a good score. They'll be the ones who could end up winning comps with good scores. If the field is big enough, and there are several of these types, you may get the same sort of guys winning at one point or another. However, for those that fight all the way to the end, I think they'll be less capable of shooting Exceptional scores, and therefore less likely to win comps. That is before you throw in the devious players who purposely try and make sure that at least some of their best 8 scores are a lot higher than they could have been.
Just a theory. But the mathematics seems to back it up just by taking my own personal scores. I also know that, if I play 15 comps between now and WHS, it would be very easy for me to post bad scores and end up with a handicap almost as high as I want.
rulefan
Tour Winner
And your handicap committee's response would be ?
Swango1980
Well-known member
In the current up, of course we would act well before it got to that stage. It would be obvious.
What I'm saying, it may be less obvious under WHS. For example, currently if a certain player often nR's or shoots nett 90, there is usually not a big issue. All that is happening is they get 0.1 back. However, under WHS, the number of shots can become important in bad rounds, especially if it happens frequently and the odd one slips into a players best 8. It may be tricky to decide a player is manipulating the system, or incredibly inconsistent and weak minded.
What I'm saying, it may be less obvious under WHS. For example, currently if a certain player often nR's or shoots nett 90, there is usually not a big issue. All that is happening is they get 0.1 back. However, under WHS, the number of shots can become important in bad rounds, especially if it happens frequently and the odd one slips into a players best 8. It may be tricky to decide a player is manipulating the system, or incredibly inconsistent and weak minded.
rulefan
Tour Winner
Have you really considered the soft cap?
Jacko_G
Blackballed
Re-read your post #86 and tell us more about soft cap if you admit in the above post that nobody knows what it will do or what options are available to the match/handicap secretary???
Swango1980
Well-known member
I have. You may have missed my post though, where I explained that if a golfer always behaved like that (i.e. posted a lot of higher scores than they could have achieved), their handicap will already be higher than it could be. The soft cap will only be set on their lowest handicap, which will already be higher than it could be. I'm not really talking about players who manage to get to their lowest handicap potential, and THEN decide to get it going upwards as quickly as possible.
Mind you, I believe the soft cap is 3, and the hard cap is 10? So, I guess if a player is determined enough, they could get their handicap going up at a rate of 3-5 shots annually? Still not bad if that is the case. I play off 9 now, next year I could theoretically play off 14, 2 years off 19, 3 years off 24? Potentially not an issue over here, as players will not be encouraged to submit all their social rounds as well. So, it will probably stick out like a sore thumb if a player does this, as they may be one of the few doing it (although there still seems to be the general thought amongst golfers that ALL rounds must be submitted, going by general chat around my club). If we get to the stage where all rounds must be submitted, then this could probably easily happen for certain players, and could be difficult to detect given the handicap secretary could have hundreds of scorecards to check every week? Maybe if the system ran a process, where in the background it would calculate handicaps from competition rounds and non-competition rounds, and if there was a big difference in scores, flag the player?
Yes, I'm sort of looking at worst case scenarios, and I'm hoping that we don't see this type of thing happening. But, as a handicap secretary, it would be foolish of me to simply assume that the WHS system WILL be better than the current one, and that there will be no problems to consider. I feel it is my duty to try and anticipate these sorts of issues asap so that I can either rule them out after full consideration, or be prepared to act if there are issues that crop up that are not currently an issue.
And, no doubt there will be other issues to consider that I have not even thought of yet. New issues seem to arise weekly that I never thought of before.
Swango1980
Well-known member
Here is an example. Assume CR=Par=72, and Slope = 113, just to make things simple.
A players last 20 scores are:
73, 75, 82, 80, 86, 78, 82, 94, 96, 88, 80, 85, 84, 86, 79, 92, 99, 83, 81, 83.
Judging by that, I believe his handicap index would be 6.5?
Now, the club champs are coming up next week, where there is both a nett and gross prize. Two rounds. He also notices that, it just so happens his first 4 scores in the list above are part of his best 8, and will be the first to be removed when he submits more rounds.
So, he decides to go out during the week, before the champs, and submit 2 supplementary cards with poor scores (not that poor, mid to high 80's would be OK). His Index jumps from 6.5 to 8.6. He then decided he has Thursday and Friday off, so gets another 2 scores in, his Index goes from 8.6 to 9.5. Assuming 6.5 was his lowest handicap that year, soft cap doesn't kick in until he exceeds 9.5. If his handicap had been a bit lower than 6.5, then he may not get up to 9.5, maybe somewhere between 9.0-9.5.
However, by posting these 4 scores, he has improved his handicap by up to 3 shots, for a total of 6 shots for the 2 round club champs. At what point does the handicap secretary intervene? He may simply argue that he played 4 rounds during the week honestly, and just in a bad run of form. Do we call him a liar?
It's a genuine question, especially as one poster on this thread has already complained that golfers hand in supplementary cards to go up 0.1 before a comp, if their handicap happens to be x.4. That is behaviour to be concerned about, but it seems like WHS could be abused even beyond this.
A players last 20 scores are:
73, 75, 82, 80, 86, 78, 82, 94, 96, 88, 80, 85, 84, 86, 79, 92, 99, 83, 81, 83.
Judging by that, I believe his handicap index would be 6.5?
Now, the club champs are coming up next week, where there is both a nett and gross prize. Two rounds. He also notices that, it just so happens his first 4 scores in the list above are part of his best 8, and will be the first to be removed when he submits more rounds.
So, he decides to go out during the week, before the champs, and submit 2 supplementary cards with poor scores (not that poor, mid to high 80's would be OK). His Index jumps from 6.5 to 8.6. He then decided he has Thursday and Friday off, so gets another 2 scores in, his Index goes from 8.6 to 9.5. Assuming 6.5 was his lowest handicap that year, soft cap doesn't kick in until he exceeds 9.5. If his handicap had been a bit lower than 6.5, then he may not get up to 9.5, maybe somewhere between 9.0-9.5.
However, by posting these 4 scores, he has improved his handicap by up to 3 shots, for a total of 6 shots for the 2 round club champs. At what point does the handicap secretary intervene? He may simply argue that he played 4 rounds during the week honestly, and just in a bad run of form. Do we call him a liar?
It's a genuine question, especially as one poster on this thread has already complained that golfers hand in supplementary cards to go up 0.1 before a comp, if their handicap happens to be x.4. That is behaviour to be concerned about, but it seems like WHS could be abused even beyond this.
nickjdavis
Head Pro
...and your anlaysis is valid except for the fact that the scoring pattern would indicate that the 73 and 75 were flukes from quite a while ago and the player concerned, could reasonably claim that, on more recent form, his handicap should be around 9 or 10.
In actual fact....shooting four scores of around 82-84 would have the same effect...he doesn't have to play particularly badly to effect the change you describe....he can just continue on playing at his "current level of form".
It seems to me that the WHS in this scenario would be doing exactly as intended....reacting more quickly to a loss of over recent rounds than the current CONGU system.
You've created a data set that supports your argument of a scenario in which a player who was are of the systems mechanics can take advantage of it. The vast majority of players scoring records will be a lot less contrived and will rarely lead to such a situation where they can deliberately throw a couple of bad rounds in to seriously affect their index ahead of a major competition.
Don't get me wrong....there will always be players who cheat the system no matter what it is. But I don't believe that you will see any more handicap manipulation than you do today.
In fact, I'm waiting for the first golfer at my club to come up to me complaining about why he had a bad round, shooting over handicap, and his index actually went down....because that could happen mathematically if his 20th round was one of his best 8 and the new round was bad but better than that oldest round!!
Likewise in your example, if the player had shot say a 77 in his latest round the 77 would replace the 73 (which would drop out of the last 20 rounds) and the players index would go up.
Swango1980
Well-known member
OK
Let me take my exact scores. So, this is obviously from a real golfer rather than me making up the scores.
Based on my last 20 qualifiers, my Handicap Index is 7.4, Course Handicap (whites) 8.7 and Playing Handicap in medal 8.3
Of those 20 scores, 3 of my best 8 came in my oldest 4 rounds.
So, if I was to submit 4 supplementary cards next, which could easily be done within a week or 2 during the summer,and I shoot 84 or over (which is easy to do), then my my Handicap Index would be 9.0, Course Handicap 10.6, Playing Handicap 10.1.
Furthermore, given the majority of my 8 best rounds were more than 10 rounds ago, if I had a few weeks and could submit poorish 10 scores, my Handicap Index would be 11.4, Course Handicap 13.4, Playing Handicap 12.7. Of course, the soft cap would kick in at this point, so this would probably be refined to Handicap Index of 10.9, Course Handicap 12.8 and Playing handicap 12.2.
So, using my proper scores, within a few weeks I can basically increase my playing handicap from 9.2 to 12.2. It would be up to the handicap secretary to determine whether I am handing in these supplementary cards to cheat, or I am handing them in because I feel I am genuinely in a poor run of form, and I want that to be considered in my next big competition. Given that I am a single figure handicapper, my scores are generally not too spread out. If you applied the same to a high handicapper, who could have a massive variation in scores from one round to the next, I bet it would be even easier for them to get quick increases in handicap by submitting fewer rounds (it will all depend on where their best rounds lie in the sequence, and which scores will get knocked off the list next.
Last edited:
