Fee for Supplementary Card

[Swango1980]

I

Did you slope and deslope your scores and use CSS rather than SSS?
Have you accounted for the soft cap?

I took my differentials direct from club V1. However, I forgot to deslope, although my point would still hold, as you'd reslope it again when working out course handicap.

But, if I deslope my results above, my Index will be 7.3, after 2 rubbish rounds it will be 8.6, but if I submitted 3 poor scores for each one comp I enter, my index would be 13.2

 

[bobmac]

So do we still call it a handicap or is it now an index?

 

[fundy]

Did you slope and deslope your scores and use CSS rather than SSS?
Have you accounted for the soft cap?

im so glad theyre simplifying things ???

 

[rulefan]

I
I took my differentials direct from club V1. However, I forgot to deslope, although my point would still hold, as you'd reslope it again when working out course handicap.

But, if I deslope my results above, my Index will be 7.3, after 2 rubbish rounds it will be 8.6, but if I submitted 3 poor scores for each one comp I enter, my index would be 13.2

How far astray from your 'normal' are the 'rubbish' rounds
What about the soft cap?

PS
I think you have got slope and deslope the wrong was round
You 'slope' your index to get Course Handicap. Then 'deslope' your score to use it for index calculation.

PPS I may not be able to respond to any post you make until tomorrow. Just about to drive to the other side of the country.

 

[Wolf]

So now we slope, deslope, soft cap etc... And this is supposed to be easier for the average golfer to workout?

 

[rulefan]

So do we still call it a handicap or is it now an index?

The base is your Handicap Index. You have a Course Handicap for the tees/course you are about to play. You have a Playing Handicap which tales account of things like 95%

 

[rulefan]

So now we slope, deslope, soft cap etc... And this is supposed to be easier for the average golfer to workout?

The average golfer doesn't need to work anything it out. He will be able to see it on the sign in screen or an app.

But if someone wants to preempt the system changeover, they do need to know how it works.

 

[Swango1980]

Thinking about it in this detail, WHS is concerning me again. Damn.

A players best 8 scores may average 10 over, for example. So, some of those rounds will be less than 10 over others could be 12, 13, 14 over. For those rounds around 13, 14 over, we know that a player still has to try, but it will be fairly obvious with a few holes to go that you won't be getting 36 points or so, and you are fighting to get 30+. However, why bother fighting? Can't win, just hack your way round the remaining holes, making sure some of your best 8 scores are higher than they could have been. That's forgetting about a player purposely submitting bad supplementary scores.

WHS could make it easier for real bandits, and help mentally weak players who stop fighting until the end. I reckon more comps will be one by an "out of the blue" great score by a player, who usually shoots poor rounds. How do you stop that, or even know that a player is being devious or just mentally week and huffing when they are not on a good score mid round?

 

[Swango1980]

How far astray from your 'normal' are the 'rubbish' rounds
What about the soft cap?

PS
I think you have got slope and deslope the wrong was round
You 'slope' your index to get Course Handicap. Then 'deslope' your score to use it for index calculation.

PPS I may not be able to respond to any post you make until tomorrow. Just about to drive to the other side of the country.

For my example of posting 3 bad scores for every comp, the soft cap would never apply. In other words, my handicap index would never be 7.3 in the first place, as I'd have been posting these bad scores all along. So, my handicap index would be floating around 13ish all along if this is what I did. Had this been my first handicap, and no one ever knew I was single figures, who would be any the wiser that my handicap should be 7-8 and not 13-14? Sure, once or twice a year i may shoot 45 points plus, but all people will say is don't worry, it was just a great round and his handicap will take care of it.

Maybe that's why those in the US say it works without major faults? They simply have nothing to compare it to. It will ge interesting after a year or so under WHS, how we compare it to what we have now.

 

[Jacko_G]

Thinking about it in this detail, WHS is concerning me again. Damn.

A players best 8 scores may average 10 over, for example. So, some of those rounds will be less than 10 over others could be 12, 13, 14 over. For those rounds around 13, 14 over, we know that a player still has to try, but it will be fairly obvious with a few holes to go that you won't be getting 36 points or so, and you are fighting to get 30+. However, why bother fighting? Can't win, just hack your way round the remaining holes, making sure some of your best 8 scores are higher than they could have been. That's forgetting about a player purposely submitting bad supplementary scores.

WHS could make it easier for real bandits, and help mentally weak players who stop fighting until the end. I reckon more comps will be one by an "out of the blue" great score by a player, who usually shoots poor rounds. How do you stop that, or even know that a player is being devious or just mentally week and huffing when they are not on a good score mid round?

That is my understanding/concern but I certainly haven't gone into the details you have so thank you for your efforts.

Likewise I think this system will make it much easier for handicap manipulation.

Thankfully I think (hope) the majority of golfers are not like this.

 

[Wolf]

The average golfer doesn't need to work anything it out. He will be able to see it on the sign in screen or an app.

But if someone wants to preempt the system changeover, they do need to know how it works.

Sorry but thats dumming down one if the things the average club golfer will often do after a decent round try to work out what they will get cut to. Many people will play a comp get a good score and try to work out their potential cut. Now with the formula's in place its taking away that little bit of fun people have in trying to calculate it. It may be nothing to you who understands it but to many its overly complex, and open to manipulation in bigger way.

 

[Wolf]

That is my understanding/concern but I certainly haven't gone into the details you have so thank you for your efforts.

Likewise I think this system will make it much easier for handicap manipulation.

Thankfully I think (hope) the majority of golfers are not like this.

I have the same concern and think its open to manipulation. My own case is that i currently only have 12 cards from the time period they're going to use, i could if i was inclined go out and shoot 8 garbage rounds and snaffle a few shots back in time for the change over...

 

[robinthehood]

I thought one of the selling points of the WHS system was its ability to move in line with your form much easier than the current ratchet system that is CONGU.

You'd like to think the system will be able to detect potential cheats.

 

[duncan mackie]

I have the same concern and think its open to manipulation. My own case is that i currently only have 12 cards from the time period they're going to use, i could if i was inclined go out and shoot 8 garbage rounds and snaffle a few shots back in time for the change over...

8 garbage rounds won't change the calculated average at all - which is sort of the point.

Yes you could shoot 12 rounds, and they would impact if all higher than your worst currently, but under the current system you would go up a couple of shots as well!

 

[Swango1980]

8 garbage rounds won't change the calculated average at all - which is sort of the point.

Yes you could shoot 12 rounds, and they would impact if all higher than your worst currently, but under the current system you would go up a couple of shots as well!

Duncan, I am with Wolf on this one.

If he went out and tried his best for 8 rounds, you'd expect around 2-4 of them to be within his overall best 8.

If he shot 8 rubbish rounds, then none will be part of his best 8, and his handicap WILL be higher. Furthermore, we have to hope that in his first 12 rounds, at least 8 of them were at OK scores. If 5 or more were disastrous, then he is going to have one or more disastrous rounds as part of his best 8.

In my example above I could easily see me having a handicap half a dozen shots higher than it should be.

 

[duncan mackie]

So are Scottish Golf and the club's I've been a member of up here telling lies?

https://www.scottishgolf.org/players/club-members/handicapping/supplementary-scores/

why do you always have to take things to extremes with phrases such as "telling lies"

What is written there seems to be fundamentally 2016 rules tweaked for some of the subsequent changes - but not all.

Fairly standard for many organisations web content management.

2016

21.4 A Member is limited to a number of Supplementary Scores in each year as detailed in below:
(a) subject to (d) below, Category 1 players may only return Supplementary Scores during the period 1 September to 31 December and only to the extent necessary to ensure that the minimum requirement for Qualifying Scores under Clause 25 is met. Category 1 players may only return Supplementary Scores over 18 holes;
(b) up to a maximum of ten Supplementary Scores may be returned annually by players in Categories 2 to 4 [5];
(c) there is no annual limit to the number of Supplementary Scores returned by players holding a CONGU® Club Handicap (Appendix J);
(d) a Union has the discretion to permit Category 1 players with handicaps in the range 2.5 to 5.4 to return up to ten Supplementary Scores in a calendar year. Such scores may only be returned at the player’s Home club within that Union’s jurisdiction. Scotland directs that Category 1 players within this handicap range may take up this discretion. England, Ireland, and Wales make no such direction.

2018 update applied

21.4 A Member is limited to a number of Supplementary Scores in each year as detailed in below:
(a) subject to (c) below, Category 1 players may only return Supplementary Scores during the period 1 September to 31 December and only to the extent necessary to ensure that the minimum requirement for Qualifying Scores under Clause 25 is met. Category 1 players may only return Supplementary Scores over 18 holes;
(b) any number of Supplementary Scores may be returned annually by players in Categories 2 to 6;
(c) a Union has the discretion to permit Category 1 players with handicaps in the range 2.5 to 5.4 to return Supplementary Scores in a calendar year. Such scores may only be returned at the player’s Home club within that Union’s jurisdiction. Scotland directs that Category 1 players within this handicap range may take up this discretion. England, Ireland, and Wales make no such direction.

2019 update

21.4 A Member is limited to a number of Supplementary Scores in each year as detailed in below:
(a) subject to (c) below, Category 1 players may only return Supplementary Scores during the period 1 September to 31 December and only to the extent necessary to ensure that the minimum requirement for Qualifying Scores under Clause 25 is met. Category 1 players may only return Supplementary Scores over 18 holes;
(b) any number of Supplementary Scores may be returned annually by players in Categories 2 to 6;
(c) a Union has the discretion to permit Category 1 players with handicaps in the range 2.5 to 5.4 to return Supplementary Scores in a calendar year. Such scores may only be returned at the player’s Home club within that Union’s jurisdiction. Scotland directs that Category 1 players within this handicap range may take up this discretion. England, Ireland, and Wales make no such direction.
(d) A Category 1 player has an additional dispensation when they commence the calendar year without a ‘Competition’ status. They may submit Supplementary Scores at any time of the year, but only in sufficient numbers to regain the ‘c’ status (i.e. a maximum of 3).

So, as written in the current rules, what was posted by Rosecott was actually more accurate that what you linked to on the SG website as they make no reference to the new 21.4 (d) at all...

The way things have evolved I suspect the intention of the clause 21.4 (c) was to retain the 10 card limit - but that's not what was written into the rules, nor is there a specific discretion to put a limit on the number. a specific communication stating that there is an error here may well exist, and what what I was alluding to in my previous post.

 

[Jacko_G]

So it is 10 in Scotland after all that.

 

[duncan mackie]

So it is 10 in Scotland after all that.

The rules don't say that

 

[Jacko_G]

The rules don't say that

The SG website specifically states 10 and that is what is fed back down to golfers at club level.

Therefore going by the fact that I am governed by SG that is the direction that I have to follow at this time.

 

[nickjdavis]

Just try this at home.
A player's best 8 are 70, 70, 73, 72, 74, 74, 76, 76 Avg 73.1
What score does he have to submit to increase by two strokes?

Surely the increase will be governed by the 9th best score, assuming that one of the above drop off, not the actual score shot in the latest round.

(your use of the phrase "best 8" leads me to assume the player has a fully developed record of 20 scores)