Fee for Supplementary Card

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Free - as they should be - supplementary cards are an aspect of maintaining a handicap and if you club gives you a handicap and maintains it as part of your membership then they maintain it.

 

[Jacko_G]

Regarding your first paragraph, if golfers are that determined to cheat, then they will pay to do it as well. And they are cheating, if they are purposely shooting bad scores to go up 0.1. Unless you make it prohibitively expensive, which impacts on honest golfers who wish to submit supplementary cards.

Committees can act if there is enough evidence that this is going on. A handicap secretary and a team around him could decide to put the players handicap back down for example. If it is very obvious, the Committee could probably implement disciplinary procedures as well.

In all honesty, never known it to happen at my club, but would be a scummy thing to do to use supplementary cards for that.

100% agree, by looks of things this new WHS looks easier to "manipulate" your handicap.

 

[rulefan]

Well you cut your cloth and don't give out commemorative gifts, why run at a loss?

Just out of interest.
1) does your club present prizes to competition winners ?
2) what is the procedure for entering and returning supplementary scores at your club?

 

[rulefan]

100% agree, by looks of things this new WHS looks easier to "manipulate" your handicap.

In what way?

 

[Jacko_G]

Just out of interest.
1) does your club present prizes to competition winners ?
2) what is the procedure for entering and returning supplementary scores at your club?

1. Yes

2. Sign the book in the shop put your card in the box and it's processed by the match/handicap secretary.

Painless and easy.

 

[Jacko_G]

In what way?

Simply by having a "poor week" where you decide to play and submit 5 cards high 80's which knocks out a few of your low/mid 70's cards.

Oops my index has increased and not by 0.1.

 

[Swango1980]

In what way?

I suppose theoretically, if say 3 out of 4 submitted rounds were supplementary, he could submit very bad scores for those. Any good score would only ever be in comp, but of course some of those may be bad if he had an off day. All in all, this would result in a much higher average of best 8 scores, thus giving them a higher handicap.

In current system, a bad round is only ever 0.1 increase. As soon as they have one good round, big cut, and then there is EsR to cut them further for multiple good rounds. The backstop is, the handicap sec can always cut them to a handicap they think appropriate.

 

[nickjdavis]

Simply by having a "poor week" where you decide to play and submit 5 cards high 80's which knocks out a few of your low/mid 70's cards.

Oops my index has increased and not by 0.1.

It will only knock them out if any of the 70's were the 5 oldest cards on your record. Additionally, the high 80's scores may not replace the scores you are losing....they could be replaced by scores in the high 70's

The WHS will make it harder to manipulate handicaps....it will require a more considered "long term strategy" and planning to get your handicap up, rather than simply saying "hey I'm on 12.2, I'm gonna play three bad rounds in the next few weeks and get myself that extra shot".

 

[rulefan]

I suppose theoretically, if say 3 out of 4 submitted rounds were supplementary, he could submit very bad scores for those. Any good score would only ever be in comp, but of course some of those may be bad if he had an off day. All in all, this would result in a much higher average of best 8 scores, thus giving them a higher handicap.

In current system, a bad round is only ever 0.1 increase. As soon as they have one good round, big cut, and then there is EsR to cut them further for multiple good rounds. The backstop is, the handicap sec can always cut them to a handicap they think appropriate.

Remember, it the best 8 of the last 20. So he would have to play enough poor 'supps' to knock out old rounds before the best 8 are reached. The principle has worked well in Australia and North America (even allowing for the fact that more southern has a poor reputation for not managing 'social' scores.

 

[Jacko_G]

It will only knock them out if any of the 70's were the 5 oldest cards on your record. Additionally, the high 80's scores may not replace the scores you are losing....they could be replaced by scores in the high 70's

The WHS will make it harder to manipulate handicaps....it will require a more considered "long term strategy" and planning to get your handicap up, rather than simply saying "hey I'm on 12.2, I'm gonna play three bad rounds in the next few weeks and get myself that extra shot".

I'm fully aware how it works and I'm confident that a few of the more unscrupulous golfers will also be aware. Hence why I went to extremes with low 70's to suddenly hitting a week of high 80's.

Anyone who is aware of there score history will quite easily know what is "required".

Thankfully the majority of golfers are not like that but a few will happily manipulate scores.

 

[rulefan]

I suppose theoretically, if say 3 out of 4 submitted rounds were supplementary, he could submit very bad scores for those. Any good score would only ever be in comp, but of course some of those may be bad if he had an off day. All in all, this would result in a much higher average of best 8 scores, thus giving them a higher handicap.

In current system, a bad round is only ever 0.1 increase. As soon as they have one good round, big cut, and then there is EsR to cut them further for multiple good rounds. The backstop is, the handicap sec can always cut them to a handicap they think appropriate.

That's why the soft and hard caps and Low Handicap Index are there. In addition, as your sec processes all the cards he should be able to nip it in the bud.

 

[rulefan]

Just try this at home.
A player's best 8 are 70, 70, 73, 72, 74, 74, 76, 76 Avg 73.1
What score does he have to submit to increase by two strokes?

 

[duncan mackie]

In Scotland Cat 1 golfers between 2.5 and 5.4 can submit up to 10 supplementary cards per season at any point in the season.

Cat 1 below 2.5 can submit 3 cards between September 1st and December 31st.

Even experts get it wrong

21.4 (c) places no restriction on the number of cards submitted by that category. Is it listed somewhere else in the rules that I've missed, or is it simply a restriction placed by your club for some reason?

21.4 (d) was correctly quoted by Rosecott. You are quoting 21.4 (a). So you are either both correct, or neither of you is correct - you choose.

 

[duncan mackie]

Just try this at home.
A player's best 8 are 70, 70, 73, 72, 74, 74, 76, 76 Avg 73.1
What score does he have to submit to increase by two strokes?

84 x 2 if the 76's drop off, 78 x 2 if he's losing the 70's

But as a principle I agree that it will be blindingly obvious under the WHS if someone is attempting to significantly manipulate their handicap index for competition play - the same issue will however exist for non Q opens where he will be able to maintain any handicap without any real reference to his performance on his handicap records (but we are going round in circles on that one again...)

 

[Jacko_G]

21.4 (c) places no restriction on the number of cards submitted by that category. Is it listed somewhere else in the rules that I've missed, or is it simply a restriction placed by your club for some reason?

21.4 (d) was correctly quoted by Rosecott. You are quoting 21.4 (a). So you are either both correct, or neither of you is correct - you choose.

So are Scottish Golf and the club's I've been a member of up here telling lies?

https://www.scottishgolf.org/players/club-members/handicapping/supplementary-scores/

 

[Swango1980]

Just try this at home.
A player's best 8 are 70, 70, 73, 72, 74, 74, 76, 76 Avg 73.1
What score does he have to submit to increase by two strokes?

If a player purposely submits a high round, it is true that it will not be one of the best 8 scores. HOWEVER, it will be one of their worst 12 scores. Therefore it will either replace one of the 12 worst scores that was a round from 21 rounds ago, or if 21 rounds ago was one of the best 8, it will promote a previous worst 12 score to one of the best 8. Therefore, over time, it would be fairly straightforward to keep a handicap 2 or 3 shots higher than you could get it to, and this could be done without being blindingly obvious about it. It might become apparent if very few people hand in supplementary scores, like now, as this player would be on the radar. But if we ever get to the point where social rounds are submitted on a regular basis, all I will say it good luck to the handicap secretary to wade through everybody's scores and trying to determine what is genuine and what is not.

 

[2blue]

£3 a Supp at our's, no charge for juniors. Decided on the basis that to maintain 'c' through entering Comps would cost £12 includes £1 for 2's Club. So why should they be able to do so for free? Doesn't seem to put people off submitting them.

 

[Swango1980]

I've done an experiment.

My current handicap is 8.7.

Under WHS, my Handicap Index would be 8.6, having gone through my last 20 scores.

Under WHS, if I submit 2 rubbish rounds next, my handicap would go from 8.6 to 10.1.

However, if I had purposely submitted 3 rubbish cards for every comp I enter, then my handicap index would not be 8.6. It would be 15.6. That's a bit different?

 

[rulefan]

I've done an experiment.

My current handicap is 8.7.

Under WHS, my Handicap Index would be 8.6, having gone through my last 20 scores.

Under WHS, if I submit 2 rubbish rounds next, my handicap would go from 8.6 to 10.1.

However, if I had purposely submitted 3 rubbish cards for every comp I enter, then my handicap index would not be 8.6. It would be 15.6. That's a bit different?

Did you slope and deslope your scores and use CSS rather than SSS?
Have you accounted for the soft cap?

 

[Swango1980]

In addition, under WHS, if it becomes apparent to some players they won't win a competition, it may suit them to play as many shots as they can for the rest of the round. It is inevitable that some of these rounds will be part of their best 8, unless they are lucky enough to be in contention in 8 out of every 20 comps.