DQ'd from Competition under rule 3.3b

[wjemather]

It really astonishes me that this is not a requirement (yes I do know it's not a requirement), but how did the rule makers ever think that putting your name on the card wasn't a necessity. It's bonkers.

Simple. The player is only responsible for items that affect their score (hole scores, handicap) and certifying those items. Applying a penalty (DQ) for anything else would be unreasonable.

 

[Swango1980]

I find this a bit harsh. Last weekend we entered the medal and didn't even write any of our handicaps on the cards. We have to enter scores on the terminal (or through the phone app as we ended up doing) anyway and all the information is in there for you. I can't be arsed working out three different handicap numbers on the new WHS thingy so we just left them blank since the computer does the working anyway.

I always thought you only had to put your name and the gross score for each hole, and sign it. I can confirm none of us were DQed anyway.

That's the spirit.

I sometimes wonder why Committee members can be arsed doing all their voluntary work, when some of the members they do it for can't even be arsed doing some of the most basic things, that take no more than a few seconds to do per round.

 

[Banchory Buddha]

Simple. The player is only responsible for items that affect their score (hole scores, handicap) and certifying those items. Applying a penalty (DQ) for anything else would be unreasonable.

You're right of course, I mean who needs to know whose scorecard it is eh? Why even use a scorecard, just write it on a napkin perhaps? This is why I have you on ignore, my day is poorer for having looked at your reply.

 

[NearHull]

It really astonishes me that this is not a requirement (yes I do know it's not a requirement), but how did the rule makers ever think that putting your name on the card wasn't a necessity. It's bonkers.

It may be that defining a name can be difficult. Whilst a number is a defined “thing”, a name could be arguably anything .. DS or Dave S or Dave Smith or David C Smith etc etc to the extreme of “formally known as Prince“

 

[BiMGuy]

Do away with the need to submit a physical card and the problem goes away.

 

[Orikoru]

That's the spirit.

I sometimes wonder why Committee members can be arsed doing all their voluntary work, when some of the members they do it for can't even be arsed doing some of the most basic things, that take no more than a few seconds to do per round.

Don't know if you've read the rest of the thread but I explained that (a) the pro/gen manager told us we didn't need to, and (b) don't they just check the gross scores vs what you've entered in the terminal anyway? What you write down in pencil as your handicap is irrelevant because the computer has all that information.

 

[Swango1980]

Don't know if you've read the rest of the thread but I explained that (a) the pro/gen manager told us we didn't need to, and (b) don't they just check the gross scores vs what you've entered in the terminal anyway? What you write down in pencil as your handicap is irrelevant because the computer has all that information.

It sounds like your club has just given up on applying the Rules of Golf, maybe the Committee and members just can't be arsed anymore?

However, this is a Rules of Golf forum, and so putting your handicap on the card is not "irrelevant". It is within the rules of golf.

It would be interesting if someone won a competition after not putting their handicap on the card, and the member that came second kicked off. The Committee might just say "we do not apply that rule at this club" to the offended member. However, I'd be worried about putting that in writing, as I'd hate it if he then forwarded it to the Union to see what they think?

Years ago we had a competition secretary, really nice guy, who didn't DQ players for not signing their card. It really backfired on him when another member kicked off after one such member won the competition. Even after this, it also backfired on him when he found a card not signed, and he went chasing the player to sign it (and if they were not around, only then DQed them), as it benefitted anyone staying around for a pint, but not those getting off straight after the round.

 

[Orikoru]

It sounds like your club has just given up on applying the Rules of Golf, maybe the Committee and members just can't be arsed anymore?

However, this is a Rules of Golf forum, and so putting your handicap on the card is not "irrelevant". It is within the rules of golf.

It would be interesting if someone won a competition after not putting their handicap on the card, and the member that came second kicked off. The Committee might just say "we do not apply that rule at this club" to the offended member. However, I'd be worried about putting that in writing, as I'd hate it if he then forwarded it to the Union to see what they think?

Years ago we had a competition secretary, really nice guy, who didn't DQ players for not signing their card. It really backfired on him when another member kicked off after one such member won the competition. Even after this, it also backfired on him when he found a card not signed, and he went chasing the player to sign it (and if they were not around, only then DQed them), as it benefitted anyone staying around for a pint, but not those getting off straight after the round.

Missing the point as people usually do in here. It may well be a rule of golf, I'm just saying it's a redundant and obsolete rule now. Why make people write in pencil what a computer already knows and works out absolutely? It doesn't make sense. I don't know why he told us we didn't need to write them if that wasn't the case, but I can only imagine he felt the same as me - it's redundant info and not something they need to check anyway. Perhaps some clubs are being more lenient on pernickety details like that since we've just come through a pandemic where nobody was handing in cards anyway. Surely only a matter of time until the need to write your handicap(s) on the card is dropped.

 

[wjemather]

You're right of course, I mean who needs to know whose scorecard it is eh? Why even use a scorecard, just write it on a napkin perhaps? This is why I have you on ignore, my day is poorer for having looked at your reply.

The rules have both of these things covered, but I'm sure you know that.

I know you think you're being clever, but you're just showing yourself up every time you post rubbish like this.

 

[Banchory Buddha]

Do away with the need to submit a physical card and the problem goes away.

Don't know if you've read the rest of the thread but I explained that (a) the pro/gen manager told us we didn't need to, and (b) don't they just check the gross scores vs what you've entered in the terminal anyway? What you write down in pencil as your handicap is irrelevant because the computer has all that information.

The problem being that scoring via the Scottish Golf App was a disaster, so we actually had to go back to paper scorecard even before C19 advice changed.

It appears now that we're into 2022 (the poll elsewhere) that most clubs have now gone back to cards for recording, then computer input post-round. It does make checking much simpler, and with so many folks who don;t have a smart phone, it means everyone is on the same system. But goodness me, how hard is writing half a dozen words or less for some people?

 

[Banchory Buddha]

Missing the point as people usually do in here. It may well be a rule of golf, I'm just saying it's a redundant and obsolete rule now. Why make people write in pencil what a computer already knows and works out absolutely? It doesn't make sense. I don't know why he told us we didn't need to write them if that wasn't the case, but I can only imagine he felt the same as me - it's redundant info and not something they need to check anyway. Perhaps some clubs are being more lenient on pernickety details like that since we've just come through a pandemic where nobody was handing in cards anyway. Surely only a matter of time until the need to write your handicap(s) on the card is dropped.

Unusual for me to disagree with you Ori, but the computer input is just the score report at the end of the comp, your scorecard signed by your playing partner is the point of record, even if that be via an App. We've input scores on a clubhouse terminal for what, 2 decades or more now? We always had to do that, but you still need to record your score somewhere in the first place, and do it in a way that is acceptable, otherwise it just becomes a free for all.

 

[Orikoru]

Unusual for me to disagree with you Ori, but the computer input is just the score report at the end of the comp, your scorecard signed by your playing partner is the point of record, even if that be via an App. We've input scores on a clubhouse terminal for what, 2 decades or more now? We always had to do that, but you still need to record your score somewhere in the first place, and do it in a way that is acceptable, otherwise it just becomes a free for all.

I did say the handing of cards in is just to double-check the score entry. I just meant why faff with other details like handicap on the scorecard which is not something that really needs to be checked in my opinion.

 

[wjemather]

Missing the point as people usually do in here. It may well be a rule of golf, I'm just saying it's a redundant and obsolete rule now. Why make people write in pencil what a computer already knows and works out absolutely? It doesn't make sense. I don't know why he told us we didn't need to write them if that wasn't the case, but I can only imagine he felt the same as me - it's redundant info and not something they need to check anyway. Perhaps some clubs are being more lenient on pernickety details like that since we've just come through a pandemic where nobody was handing in cards anyway. Surely only a matter of time until the need to write your handicap(s) on the card is dropped.

If it were redundant and obsolete, it would no longer be in the book. As I keep saying, golf exists beyond the boundaries of clubs (and other organisations) who have ready access to technology, and the rules need to cover these scenarios as well.

Your GM has said that because he is lazy and/or ignorant of the rules and/or incompetent. And the reasons are similar as to why your members let them get away with it.

 

[Orikoru]

If it were redundant and obsolete, it would no longer be in the book. As I keep saying, golf exists beyond the boundaries of clubs (and other organisations) who have ready access to technology, and the rules need to cover these scenarios as well.

Your GM has said that because he is lazy and/or ignorant of the rules and/or incompetent. And the reasons are similar as to why your members let them get away with it.

I guess one man's lazy incompetence is another man's common sense to not waste people's time. ??‍

I did chuckle at your suggestion that golf wouldn't be behind the curve on anything... I don't see why that rule couldn't be flexible, say you allow the club to dictate their own requirements based on whether they have the technology or not for example. But that's probably far too logical and forward-thinking.

 

[Colin L]

The rules have both of these things covered, but I'm sure you know that.

I know you think you're being clever, but you've just showing yourself up every time you post rubbish like this.

Our North East Buddha won't of course see that comment as he has you on ignore. Nor, I suspect, will he see this quotation of it since I think he put me on ignore some time ago.

It seems, therefore, to be some form of accreditation, an accolade even, to be ignored. Can we take is an indication that we know what you're talking about and prefer fact to prejudice. . Anyone else on the Honours List?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Do away with the need to submit a physical card and the problem goes away.

Indeed - as long as you retain the option to submit a physical card as an alternative to electronic recording.

 

[Swango1980]

Missing the point as people usually do in here. It may well be a rule of golf, I'm just saying it's a redundant and obsolete rule now. Why make people write in pencil what a computer already knows and works out absolutely? It doesn't make sense. I don't know why he told us we didn't need to write them if that wasn't the case, but I can only imagine he felt the same as me - it's redundant info and not something they need to check anyway. Perhaps some clubs are being more lenient on pernickety details like that since we've just come through a pandemic where nobody was handing in cards anyway. Surely only a matter of time until the need to write your handicap(s) on the card is dropped.

I'm not missing the point at all.

The rules try and be as black and white as possible so that everyone is subject to the same conditions, and subjectivity is taken out of it. The rules are periodically updated to reflect the times. However, as it stands now, the Rules STILL require the handicap to be included on the card.

However, you (and by the sounds of it, those that run your club) feel that clear rules can be ignored based on "common sense". Hence, it explains some of you bizarre contributions in this forum in the past. How can I blame you for playing a ball that is clearly out of bounds, if the Committee do a poor job of marking it in the first place and you can just decide upon your own definition of where the boundary line between two posts is? How can I blame you for saying you do not need to put your handicap on a card, when your club blatantly ignores the rule. It does not help the Committee, as I said, if a member one day decides to challenge them. And, it doesn't help you if you ever play somewhere else, or move clubs, and find yourself disqualified because you couldn't be arsed to put your handicap on the card.

The Rules also state "No Discretion to Vary Penalties. Penalties need to be applied only as provided in the Rules. - Neither a player nor the Committee has authority to apply penalties in a different way"

Is this Rule in itself obsolete. Can the Committee simply apply rules, or not apply them, depending on their own common sense?

 

[Orikoru]

However, you (and by the sounds of it, those that run your club) feel that clear rules can be ignored based on "common sense". Hence, it explains some of you bizarre contributions in this forum in the past. How can I blame you for playing a ball that is clearly out of bounds, if the Committee do a poor job of marking it in the first place and you can just decide upon your own definition of where the boundary line between two posts is?

I've never done that. ??‍

How can I blame you for saying you do not need to put your handicap on a card, when your club blatantly ignores the rule. It does not help the Committee, as I said, if a member one day decides to challenge them. And, it doesn't help you if you ever play somewhere else, or move clubs, and find yourself disqualified because you couldn't be arsed to put your handicap on the card.

The last thing I always, always do before handing a card in is check with the pro that I've done everything correctly, since I can never remember, and another pair of eyes to check I've forgotten anything is always helpful.

The Rules also state "No Discretion to Vary Penalties. Penalties need to be applied only as provided in the Rules. - Neither a player nor the Committee has authority to apply penalties in a different way"

Is this Rule in itself obsolete. Can the Committee simply apply rules, or not apply them, depending on their own common sense?

I don't know or care really. All I know is I wasn't told to write the handicap, and subsequently I wasn't disqualified for not having done so - and it made logical sense to me since the computer does all the handicap calcs. Simple as that really. I don't think it matters as long as everyone in the club entering the competition(s) is treated the same.

 

[Swango1980]

I've never done that. ??‍

The last thing I always, always do before handing a card in is check with the pro that I've done everything correctly, since I can never remember, and another pair of eyes to check I've forgotten anything is always helpful.


I don't know or care really. All I know is I wasn't told to write the handicap, and subsequently I wasn't disqualified for not having done so - and it made logical sense to me since the computer does all the handicap calcs. Simple as that really. I don't think it matters as long as everyone in the club entering the competition(s) is treated the same.

But it does matter, whatever you think. Why come on a rules forum and just say "I don't think it matters" when talking about a specific rule. Of course it matters, otherwise it wouldn't be a rule. Maybe there will be a day where the rule is removed, and then would be the correct time to say it doesn't matter. Personally, I think it will adapt over time, and maybe there will be an option to remove the rule generally, but to allow Committees to enforce a local rule where it is required in certain situations (for example, if they do not have access to the computer and are relying on the player to provide the correct handicap). However, as it stands, that time has not come.

Regarding your first point, I never said you have actually done it, I was referring to the point that you WOULD have done it if you were in the situation described in another post, even after others said you'd be wrong. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that your incompetence with the rules (or can't be arsed attitude) perhaps isn't down to you as an individual, but because your club has consistently been poor and applying the rules as they should over the years you have played there (assuming you have played there for years). If they can't be arsed applying certain rules, of course why would members even bother. If my club actively couldn't be arsed DQing a player for not signing a card, for example, then it would be difficult to blame any players for not signing their card. They'd just have to remember to do it when playing somewhere else.

 

[Orikoru]

But it does matter, whatever you think. Why come on a rules forum and just say "I don't think it matters" when talking about a specific rule. Of course it matters, otherwise it wouldn't be a rule. Maybe there will be a day where the rule is removed, and then would be the correct time to say it doesn't matter. Personally, I think it will adapt over time, and maybe there will be an option to remove the rule generally, but to allow Committees to enforce a local rule where it is required in certain situations (for example, if they do not have access to the computer and are relying on the player to provide the correct handicap). However, as it stands, that time has not come.

Regarding your first point, I never said you have actually done it, I was referring to the point that you WOULD have done it if you were in the situation described in another post, even after others said you'd be wrong. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that your incompetence with the rules (or can't be arsed attitude) perhaps isn't down to you as an individual, but because your club has consistently been poor and applying the rules as they should over the years you have played there (assuming you have played there for years). If they can't be arsed applying certain rules, of course why would members even bother. If my club actively couldn't be arsed DQing a player for not signing a card, for example, then it would be difficult to blame any players for not signing their card. They'd just have to remember to do it when playing somewhere else.

Give it a rest. It obviously matters more if your club doesn't have the computer tech. It doesn't matter that much at my club where we do have it.

What I said was there was a good chance I wouldn't have considered the possibility of it being out of bounds, i.e. I'd have potentially got it wrong and not even known I'd got it wrong and proceeded unawares. If you think that's the same as wilfully and knowingly disobeying rules then there's something wrong with you. But let's not dredge up old ground and do all that discussion again as well. Even if dragging up old arguments to repeat ad infinitum does seem to be a speciality of yours.

And this isn't about signing the card. It's about writing your handicap on the card. Not the same thing.