you just need to man/woman/they/non gender specific up and go for it!
Course design you dislike.
- Thread starter Lump
- Start date
you just need to man/woman/they/non gender specific up and go for it!
D
Deleted member 21258
Guest
Or it really separates the big hitters from the rest. Normally a mate of mine out drives me by say 40 yards, but on the 18th at our place there's a ditch at around 200, so he drives it, I have to lay up and now he's out driven me by 80 yards!
I don't think I mentioned how far the hazard is, so not necessarily for a particular distance hitter. It could be at 300 yards or 250 yards, or similarly at 150 yards or for you 200 yards. That said penalising shorter hitters of the tee is not good course design, course design should allow the game to be easier for the not so good players but harder for better players(if you say distance equates to better players, so better players generally carry the ball say 220 yards plus).
In addition making the game harder for higher handicappers means the game will slowed down etc, so placing hazards all over the place at 200 yards is not great, whereas placing them at 250-300 yards is better. Keeps the speed up, higher handicappers are challenged just by the playing golf and don't need the hazards in or by driving distances/fairway and it also challenges the best players better, as they are in play for them at the longer distance.
I think a hazard all the way across the fairway is just to far a blunt an instrument for course design., by all means creep the bunkers or a ditch or heather into the fairway and narrow it down at certain distances.
You need to give players options off the tee, and ask them a question so the shot can get into their head or challenge them, not say to them 'you are laying up' off the tee if you cant carry the ball 'x' yards.
Other opinions are available
GB72
Money List Winner
Bit of a subjective one but I hate it when the next tee box is right next to the previous green or right behind it. I am talking a few where a semi decent shot that is not missing the green by much can get very close the group ahead not ones that are 10 or 20 yards away. Have the same issue on a few courses where the clubhouse or patio is less than one club away from the 18th green. so as a slight miss calculation could have people running for cover or risk a hefty broken glass bill. a back tee on the 18th at Belton Woods can mean that a normal iron can be on the pin but give it a bit extra and it has golfers outside the bar running for cover. I just cannot commit to those shots, shots which are basically me hitting a ball directly at the next group knowing full well they are in range but I am expected to play irrespective.
Wilson
Head Pro
Don't play The Lakes course at The Vale then, two of the holes are cut so much into a hill I'm pretty sure it's impossible to hold the fairway - one of them I hit into the left rough, and it ended up in the right rough!
Liverbirdie
Ryder Cup Winner
I don't think I mentioned how far the hazard is, so not necessarily for a particular distance hitter. It could be at 300 yards or 250 yards, or similarly at 150 yards or for you 200 yards. That said penalising shorter hitters of the tee is not good course design, course design should allow the game to be easier for the not so good players but harder for better players(if you say distance equates to better players, so better players generally carry the ball say 220 yards plus).
In addition making the game harder for higher handicappers means the game will slowed down etc, so placing hazards all over the place at 200 yards is not great, whereas placing them at 250-300 yards is better. Keeps the speed up, higher handicappers are challenged just by the playing golf and don't need the hazards in or by driving distances/fairway and it also challenges the best players better, as they are in play for them at the longer distance.
I think a hazard all the way across the fairway is just to far a blunt an instrument for course design., by all means creep the bunkers or a ditch or heather into the fairway and narrow it down at certain distances.
You need to give players options off the tee, and ask them a question so the shot can get into their head or challenge them, not say to them 'you are laying up' off the tee if you cant carry the ball 'x' yards.
Other opinions are available
I agree on most of what you say with regards to a course as a whole, but can'y apply it just to one hole.
Throughout a course a good designer should build in risk/reward on some holes and dependent upon drive length of different golfers it may not be a decision to be made for short hitters on one hole, but could be on another, and so on.
HomerJSimpson
Hall of Famer
We have our 7th which has a ditch across it at around 230-240 off the whites. The big hitters can go for it but the fairway past the ditch narrows and tilts from right to left towards and OOB area. However go for it and go right with a fraction of draw and you can get right up there and leave around 80-90 yards in. It is SI 2 as well so even the low guys get a shot. Most choose to lay up which leaves a shot from 170-200 depending on how close to the ditch you take the tee shot. The second plays uphill to a plateau and the green and it is a hole where the ball will run so you can pitch it 50 yards short and it will run towards the green
We also have a ditch on our 10th around 280 off the whites and slightly downhill which the big boys can get to in the current dry conditions and similar on the 18th. They are out of range for all but the biggest hitters and even if they go 3 wood because of their length they aren't overly punished
I have not problem with any course that has ditches off the tee providing they are clearly shown on a course planner or GPS device and you know there are there.
We also have a ditch on our 10th around 280 off the whites and slightly downhill which the big boys can get to in the current dry conditions and similar on the 18th. They are out of range for all but the biggest hitters and even if they go 3 wood because of their length they aren't overly punished
I have not problem with any course that has ditches off the tee providing they are clearly shown on a course planner or GPS device and you know there are there.
Bazzatron
Q-School Graduate
Played there last year, two terrible holes. No idea how to play them
Bazzatron
Q-School Graduate
Any blind tee shot, asking for slow play if there's no bell or the players in front can't be arsed to ring it.
D
Deleted member 21258
Guest
Of course, would really depend on the hole and some holes work great with a hazard all the way across (but rarely in my eyes, unless it is a proper layup hole for other reasons).
So a hole like 12th(?) at Woburn Marquees layout hole works great, even though its basically a straight boring hole without the water there. And can think of other holes with say ravines in play, they are great and proper layup holes.
Even at the home course, hole 6th, shortish par 4 with a sharp dog leg right hole, there is a ditch on the dogleg at approx. 180-190, you would not wish to hit a long club on, as the actual hole shape doesn't call for it. Well you can hit over the corner but its high risk and doesn't really make the hole easier to score on. So you hit to the corner of the dogleg to access the shot to the green. Not that its my favourite hole as hitting a 7 iron/9 wood off the tee out left and then 5 wood to PW to green(depending on how I have hit the tee shot
), doesn't excite the blood or make me think or ask me a question.There was a hole at West Hill, think 17th(edited?), that heather had been grown right across the fairway, fairly deep but easily reachable off the tee with a driver, I just looked and thought yawn and then slashed away and carved my 5 wood into the trees
(edit thinking about it west hill had ditches as well, 1st, 16th for example.)
Last edited by a moderator:
Ross61
Challenge Tour Pro
I played a society game there. They had made it the longest drive hole. The 2 longest hitters made it into the water, the prize went to one that stayed dry. Not a problem for me though as it was well out of my reach
sunshine
Well-known member
I think this can be a great design feature, tests your ability to hold the ball on the green, a poorly struck shot just kicks forward and rolls on. I think Good courses have a mixture of greens running front to back / back to front etc.
sunshine
Well-known member
I played a society game there. They had made it the longest drive hole. The 2 longest hitters made it into the water, the prize went to one that stayed dry. Not a problem for me though as it was well out of my reach
It’s about 330 yards to reach the water off the tee (375 yards from the back tee). Your group must have some tour level ball strikers, or were you playing from the junior tees?
sunshine
Well-known member
My pet hate is excessive artificial water hazards. If it blends into the topography that’s fine, but when a fake stream or pond is artificially inserted on a hill or a slope in front of a green it just looks terrible.
The Shire is the worst culprit for this. Five par threes protected by water is just repetitive lazy design. Some of them work eg 7 and 17, but 14 is just an eyesore.
The Shire is the worst culprit for this. Five par threes protected by water is just repetitive lazy design. Some of them work eg 7 and 17, but 14 is just an eyesore.
sunshine
Well-known member
I’m going against the flow here, but I’m ok with a long par 3, if there is a generous green and a bail out area. Effectively it’s a par 3.5 and gives higher handicappers the option to play it as a short par 4. 16th at Carnoustie springs to mind.
What’s wrong with hitting driver on a par 3 if it’s the right club?
I also like to see a long par 3 balanced out by a short par 3 and/or a short driveable par 4.
What’s wrong with hitting driver on a par 3 if it’s the right club?
I also like to see a long par 3 balanced out by a short par 3 and/or a short driveable par 4.
Ross61
Challenge Tour Pro
We were playing off the sapphires. Hole only 365 in total. Don’t know why we played off them as I was disappointed all the par 3s were really short.
KenL
Tour Rookie
If the greens are receptive it is bearable, if rock hard it is almost impossible to stop a ball. If you are not hitting an 8, 9 or wedge but a long club it is impossible.
A green that slopes down from front to back is a rare feature on a golf course, for a good reason.
ScienceBoy
Money List Winner
I love a long par 3*, it adds an added dimension to the game as it is mini risk/reward drivable hole.
I enjoy figuring out the best strategy and layup position and then deciding to go for it or not.
Long par 3s, when designed well, are my favourite hole type.
*over 160 yards
I enjoy figuring out the best strategy and layup position and then deciding to go for it or not.
Long par 3s, when designed well, are my favourite hole type.
*over 160 yards
Last edited:
KenL
Tour Rookie
Unfortunately over 160 yards is not seen as a long par 3 these days. Over 200 is a long par 3 for me and I am not a fan in general.
Pathetic Shark
Tour Rookie
Courses that use stupid marketing names for their tees. What's wrong with White, Yellow and Red?
KenL
Tour Rookie
Agreed that this could be annoying if you don't know the course. Two poles, one left and one right could show a safe zone from all tees.
The 9th at my club has a pole, good line from yellow and red tee but not from the white tee.
When R&A used the course for final open qualifying in 2013 they actually had the pole removed.
