CONGU - End discrimination in golf competitions

[Craigg]

Why 18? Seems somewhat arbitrary. Why is one shot a hole OK but 1.06 shots per hole not OK? Is there some basis to the limit you're suggesting or have you just picked that number because it makes the maths easy? What would the impact be on participation if 18 were the competitive limit?

Presumably you have a handicap yourself, do you think that those with a lower handicap resent you for not "putting the work in" but still being able to win now and again?

Club golf, on the whole, is a handicap game - it's fundamental. I presume (although I've never checked!) that there are scratch competitions out there for people who don't agree with the principal of a competition being won by anyone other than the best golfer.

Ok, we'll make it 20 just for you. No wait, hang on, that'll upset the 21 handicappers.........
As I've explained, if you read my post correctly, that 2 shots per hole is the point at which I believe it becomes an unfair advantage. The reason are pretty obvious really. I am not expecting full agreement, but that is how I see it.

 

[Deleted member 21258]

Why 18? Seems somewhat arbitrary. Why is one shot a hole OK but 1.06 shots per hole not OK? Is there some basis to the limit you're suggesting or have you just picked that number because it makes the maths easy? What would the impact be on participation if 18 were the competitive limit?

Presumably you have a handicap yourself, do you think that those with a lower handicap resent you for not "putting the work in" but still being able to win now and again?

Club golf, on the whole, is a handicap game - it's fundamental. I presume (although I've never checked!) that there are scratch competitions out there for people who don't agree with the principal of a competition being won by anyone other than the best golfer.

Agree with you completely. My wife could practise everyday of the week and she would never get to 18, just like if I practise everyday of the week I would never make scratch. Nothing to do with putting the effort in, just not the ability to. That said I agree with have divisions on golf comps to help with these issues, as can see the point people are making.

The beauty of golf is that you can have a game against anyone due to the handicap system.

 

[duncan mackie]

...sign the petition to persuade CONGU ....

Nothing to do with CONGU.

Anyone, anywhere, can organise a golf competition and make any rules they wish.

Any problem you have should be taken up with whoever is organising the ones in a manner that you object to.

 

[Fish]

Down to your club not Congu, so I'd write to your competitions secretary/committee and get a petition going from within your club, I don't think you'll need much more than 1 sheet of paper though!

Our comps are divisionalised by handicap category at times or split into 2 or 3 lists dependent on the number entering, with that said, they'll always be a Nett 1st, 2nd & 3rd and a Best Gross win in each division.

It would seem to me you need to direct your whining at your club and not at Congu as a lot of clubs, mine included, respect the ability of all handicap golfers and reward them accordingly.

Your 'putting the effort in' comment is pretty disgusting imo.

 

[LincolnShep]

As I've explained, if you read my post correctly...

This kind of comment really winds me up - I don't think you'd be that rude if we were sat in the clubhouse having this discussion.

Anyway, leaving my thin skin aside, why is getting two shots on a hole wrong? You're a better golfer than me, without my handicap advantage, you'd win virtually every time we played. I could probably scrape by at 18 but, if I were naturally a 28 but only able to have 18, the games would be so one-sided that there would be little incentive for me to keep playing (other than fresh air and companionship).

About 28% of golfers get two shots on one or more holes (that's based on USGA statistics from 2012, couldn't find anything newer) - how many of those would carry on playing competitions if they knew they had no chance of winning? Would your club be better or worse if all the 19-28 handicappers left?

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

Possibly some of the reasons for max handicaps in particular competitions are to do with things like juniors/newcomers whose abilities are improving faster than their handicaps are dropping (hence cleaning up often in club major competitions) or when the course is set up tougher (back tees etc) for bigger comps.

 

[Craigg]

This kind of comment really winds me up - I don't think you'd be that rude if we were sat in the clubhouse having this discussion.

Didn't mean it to come across as rude, so apologies for that, but I would say the same thing if the discussion was in the clubhouse. I can see your issue but you're failing to see my point.

Anyway, leaving my thin skin aside, why is getting two shots on a hole wrong? You're a better golfer than me, without my handicap advantage, you'd win virtually every time we played. I could probably scrape by at 18 but, if I were naturally a 28 but only able to have 18, the games would be so one-sided that there would be little incentive for me to keep playing (other than fresh air and companionship).

Getting two shots on a hole is not wrong, but again, as I said earlier, that is the point at which I see an unfair advantage appearing. This is why I would have the two divisions, so everyone can be in with a fair chance in their respective divisions. You are only putting across the case the high handicapper. I am putting the case across for the low handicapper. It has to work for everyone. The handicap system, as you elude to, is about providing a level playing field for golfers of all abilities. I just think it is failing the low handicappers.

About 28% of golfers get two shots on one or more holes (that's based on USGA statistics from 2012, couldn't find anything newer) - how many of those would carry on playing competitions if they knew they had no chance of winning?

I can't answer that for other people.

Would your club be better or worse if all the 19-28 handicappers left?

Undoubtedly worse, but we are not discussing that, and it's very unlikely to happen.

...

 

[Lord Tyrion]

In relation to the last point, if high handicappers have no chance of winning, note no chance not a small chance which is their starting point, then they simply will stop playing competition golf and stick with social golf. You then have smaller competition sizes, smaller winning pot, smaller two's club etc. That doesn't benefit the low handicappers either. They may not leave their club but they will stop entering comps. I've seen this happen and the club then has a heck of a job getting them back into playing comps again when they decide to reverse their decision.

 

[Craigg]

In relation to the last point, if high handicappers have no chance of winning, note no chance not a small chance which is their starting point, then they simply will stop playing competition golf and stick with social golf.

Hence the two fixed divisions

You then have smaller competition sizes, smaller winning pot, smaller two's club etc. That doesn't benefit the low handicappers either. They may not leave their club but they will stop entering comps. I've seen this happen and the club then has a heck of a job getting them back into playing comps again when they decide to reverse their decision.

Size of the winning pot is a complete side issue and not related to the point of my argument, which is fairness within the handicap system.

...

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Divisions in comps make sense, I agree 🙌.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Ok, we'll make it 20 just for you. No wait, hang on, that'll upset the 21 handicappers.........
As I've explained, if you read my post correctly, that 2 shots per hole is the point at which I believe it becomes an unfair advantage. The reason are pretty obvious really. I am not expecting full agreement, but that is how I see it.

The only people not getting a shot on SI 1 are the scratch and below people, so even the Cat 1 player off 1 is given help on the SI 1 hole, why then if you understand the difficulties off the game we play do you honestly believe a 19 handicapper doesn't need any more help than the person off 1.

 

[IanM]

With respect to the original poster, I don't see the problem. (at my club)

- medals/stablefords are in divisions, with no arbitrary "max" - just based on your handicap. Many events have prize for best gross.
- Scratch Events are ...eh, scratch. As a 12 handicapper, I don't bother, but I don't lose any sleep over it.
- Same goes for the odd comp with a max allowance. If you think you're disadvantaged, keep your money in your pocket. Plenty of other stuff to play.
Any game you play with your mates, play off what you like!

I see no discrimination... it's a sport based on "gross strokes played" or handicapped. Worked ok for several hundred years.

I rang Bath Rugby this morning. I fancy playing in their 1st Team on Boxing Day. Apparently I cant just turn up and play.... that's discriminatory, anyone want to sign my petition?

 

[IanM]

This kind of comment really winds me up - I don't think you'd be that rude if we were sat in the clubhouse having this discussion.

Anyway, leaving my thin skin aside, why is getting two shots on a hole wrong? You're a better golfer than me, without my handicap advantage, you'd win virtually every time we played. I could probably scrape by at 18 but, if I were naturally a 28 but only able to have 18, the games would be so one-sided that there would be little incentive for me to keep playing (other than fresh air and companionship).

About 28% of golfers get two shots on one or more holes (that's based on USGA statistics from 2012, couldn't find anything newer) - how many of those would carry on playing competitions if they knew they had no chance of winning? Would your club be better or worse if all the 19-28 handicappers left?

...and Shep looks like a big chap.... whatever he says is ok my me!

 

[Craigg]

The only people not getting a shot on SI 1 are the scratch and below people, so even the Cat 1 player off 1 is given help on the SI 1 hole, why then if you understand the difficulties off the game we play do you honestly believe a 19 handicapper doesn't need any more help than the person off 1.

I see your point, but he has 17 more holes of help left. If you want to call extremes, then what about the poor chap off 1 playing matchplay with the 28 capper. The higher handicapper has 2 shots on six holes (if my maths is correct). We are going to have to agree to disagree I think as we all have our own views on this subject. I have made my opinions on the subject clear enough, and I understand the views of others. I don't want it to turn into another forum slanging match.
In answer to the OP. I won't be signing your petition.

 

[mikejohnchapman]

I agree that divisions are the best way to handle this because the problem is only going to get worse.

Whether we like it or not the average age of golfers is going up as is the average handicap. Last time I looked it was in the high teens and climbing. This is despite the improvements in equipment, balls and yardage machines. I don't believe for a minute the vast majority of players are doing anything but trying to score the lowest score they can so if the trend continues we will be seeing more and more higher handicaps.

Scratch comps vs nett will give some relief but as discussed in other threads the inevitable consequence will be for lower handicap players not to enter nett competitions or knockouts. This has a detrimental effect and clubs as the fun of playing fellow members will deminish.

What has this got to do with CONGU? Nothing at all.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

I see your point, but he has 17 more holes of help left. If you want to call extremes, then what about the poor chap off 1 playing matchplay with the 28 capper. The higher handicapper has 2 shots on six holes (if my maths is correct). We are going to have to agree to disagree I think as we all have our own views on this subject. I have made my opinions on the subject clear enough, and I understand the views of others. I don't want it to turn into another forum slanging match.
In answer to the OP. I won't be signing your petition.

I totally get were you're coming from, my only issue with any handicap discussion is, if you don't like the rules, don't enter the comp, nobody forces the 1 handicapper to play the person off 28, but they must of known there was a chance.
I played in a Ind Stab Comp on sunday, me and another off 12, 1 guy off 21 and a bloke off 2, the guy off 2 played some lovely golf and got 37 points, the guy off 21 played some decent and some dross and got 39 points, the guy off 2 was really pleased how he played and I asked him if he's annoyed knowing he is very unlikely to ever win a Ind Stab at our place, answer, No, he can't control how others will play and uses all Stab comps as practise rounds and never misses them.

 

[Soft hands]

More often than not the person who plays the best golf on the day doesn't win though?

 

[Qwerty]

Possibly some of the reasons for max handicaps in particular competitions are to do with things like juniors/newcomers whose abilities are improving faster than their handicaps are dropping (hence cleaning up often in club major competitions) .

^^^^This
A similar scenario at my club this year - Big weekend board comp' and I couldn't play the 2nd day despite being in 2nd place after day 1, just due to me not playing the required 4 qualifiers beforehand due to injury.

Now I don't know of any H'cap protectors at the club but I'm presuming the rule is in place to discourage it and prevent them from winning.

Dissapointed at the time but Im glad the rule is in place and understand the reasons why. As D4S says some of these conditions are only implemented for certain (bigger) comps.

 

[351DRIVER]

All handicaps 18 max, that is just daft, the handicapping system in golf is one of the best things in sport allowing rubbish golfers to compete with experts. If anything I would increase handicaps, certainly for juniors.

 

[Craigg]

All handicaps 18 max, that is just daft, the handicapping system in golf is one of the best things in sport allowing rubbish golfers to compete with experts. If anything I would increase handicaps, certainly for juniors.

Obviously haven't read the whole thread then.