Winter Golf - Handicap Qualifying Competitions - Change in Handicap Culture

[jim8flog]

We do not have a 'season' all competitions continue throughout the whole year. With 4 comps a week some some weeks.
They only become non qualifiers if there are too many temp greens.

All weekday and Sunday comps are optional and Stableford. All Saturday comps October to April are optional and Stableford

 

[jonfSAOLGC]

At the 3 golf clubs I've been a member of over the last 30 yrs each one has moved to Non-Qualifying comps at the end of the active season (Usually the end of October) and not allowed submission of supplementary scorecards.
With the upcoming change in the handicap culture ie WHS. I was wondering if golfers on the forum who play through the winter would support qualifying comps and submission of supplementary scores.

It would also stop the frustrating situation of joining a golf club just as the 'qualifying' season ends and then not being able to play in any competitions for 6 months because you can't get a handicap....it was a long six months on the practice ground!

 

[mikejohnchapman]

We pack our winter comps with team events which sorts out handicap or not for a while.

However, I think we will be having monthly stablefords and the ability to put in acceptable rounds until Easter next year.

Between the Covid regs and normal rules involving winter golf CONGU are pretty reasonable about playing conditions for acceptable rounds in winter conditions.

 

[IanM]

We've always stopped qualifiers about end Oct. Plenty of comps run, just NQ. Winter League is 4BBB. Cardiff Council have cancelled golf for the foreseeable.

I'd be surprised if the no qualifiers in Winter norm changes due to WHS, heck, I'd be surprised if our Vets' Section even know WHS is coming!

 

[Chinny]

We've always stopped qualifiers about end Oct. Plenty of comps run, just NQ. Winter League is 4BBB. Cardiff Council have cancelled golf for the foreseeable.

I'd be surprised if the no qualifiers in Winter norm changes due to WHS, heck, I'd be surprised if our Vets' Section even know WHS is coming!

Thanks for your reply (love the last bit) Stay Safe and hopefully you'll be back on the course soon

 

[saxonal]

At the 3 golf clubs I've been a member of over the last 30 yrs each one has moved to Non-Qualifying comps at the end of the active season (Usually the end of October) and not allowed submission of supplementary scorecards.
With the upcoming change in the handicap culture ie WHS. I was wondering if golfers on the forum who play through the winter would support qualifying comps and submission of supplementary scores.
In the CONGU "GUIDANCE ON THE WHS RULES OF HANDICAPPING" it says "It is expected that all clubs will endeavour to encourage players to return acceptable scores throughout the year where possible”
The usual stumbling blocks are, preferred lies (especially in bunkers) playing fewer than 18 holes and playing a shorter course ie Winter Tees/Greens.
All of the above have now been individually addressed under the new World Handicap System so I personally don't see why we cant play play qualifying comps etc Thoughts Please...
WHS now covers playing less than 18 holes ie 14-18 holes played - Net pars for holes not played. Between 10-13 holes - Net bogey for first hole not played and net pars for the rest (think this is right)
WHS also allow qualifying comps on courses between 100-300yrds shorter than the certified measured course using the "England Golf Rules of Handicapping" Course/Slope Rating table to adjust the ratings to reflect the shorter course (The Handicap Committee must notify the Authorised Association and get their authority to play comps on a shorter course and adjust the Course/Slope ratings accordingly using the guidance table in Appendix G of the "England Golf Rules of Handicapping"
CONGU have published literature saying comps can be qualifying with preferred lies as per Model Local Rule E-3 ie Closely mown areas in the General Area, they have also published that during times of COVID (No rakes in bunkers) preferred lies are allowed in bunkers but player is NOT ALLOWED to smooth bunker before placing.
Sorry for going on a bit but its a shame each year we lose about 6 months of handicap qualifying comps, maybe with the new WHS coming in to play next week its a good time to change the usual policy of no qualifying comps in winter.

WHS Rule of Handicapping 3.2 allows rounds acceptable for handicap purposes to be submitted as long as a minimum of 10 holes have been completed! Those holes out of play must be out for valid reasons such as bad weather, loss of light, maintenance etc other examples given in rule. We have bucket holes on fairways and therefore they do not comply with rules of golf, so cannot not be classed as temporaries. We had attempted to play a round with 13 main greens in play and to play the bucket hole holes (main greens out flooded) for continuity purposes only using, "Not Started" or "Did Not Play" for these holes in scoring software. Scores were accepted by WHS and we thought great at least we can play a semi-meaningful round of golf. An email has just been issued saying that our Authorising Association has advised that play on these bucket holes that are deemed out of play is against the rules of golf as this is classed as on course practice. Qualifiers can be played but players must walk past and must not play the out of play bucket holes. Is this really what the WHS meant when they talked of improving opportunities for more scores to be recorded in winter golf? Local rules allowing on course practice were mentioned but apparently they only apply to before and between competition rounds, not during. Lets simplify the rules of golf they said!!!!

 

[SteveJay]

I'm disappointed - just come into a bit of form and we stop "qualifying competitions", move off fairways with lift clean and place and lift clean and drop when not on closely mown areas, with general play off the black (non WHS measured) course.

So looks like I won't be submitting any WHS scores now until the Spring, although think the club is planning on having one qualifier a month, which is generally over subscribed so may not get in.

 

[Swango1980]

When on the Committee at our last place, we always endeavoured to make all competitions qualifying (obviously except for the fun ones like Mulligan, 3 club, etc). These would only become non-qualifying when the conditions put us on over 2 temps. Going back further in time, previous comp secs (and the Seniors section) just played non-qualifiers. Nothing more demoralising seeing somebody win a competition with 46 points and not getting a cut. And, those that don't want qualifiers insist that conditions are too tough, yet we still see high scores win winter comps. Not allowing qualifiers also meant you could have rapidly improving golfers at that time of year who were not rewarded with cuts, and you could have new golfers who couldn't get a handicap. When we ran all comps as qualifiers when we could, it didn't appear to have any adverse effects whatsoever.

The only issue really is when it comes to adverse weather and temp conditions, and how to manage this. Golfers can now submit scores through Apps and the PSI, and that goes straight onto their handicap record. It is inevitable that golfers will play on days in which conditions are not acceptable for handicap, such as many temp greens, bucket holes, etc and submit their score. They'll either be unaware that they cannot use this score, or even ignore it. It will be difficult for many clubs to manage this, because a handicap secretary will probably not know what days were acceptable and which ones were not when it comes to reviewing scores (and I doubt many handicap committees will review every score that is submitted anyway). You'd pretty much need someone who is at club full time, who knows what the conditions of the course are every day, and at the end of the day routinely delete any scores that were submitted when they should not have been. I doubt many clubs are in that position. So, perhaps some clubs will enforce a blanket ban on supplementary cards as a solution to this problem (but create the other problem of not allowing players to submit scores when the course is acceptable). However, I don't see why competitions cannot be qualifying at least, as you'll often have a competition secretary who will know how the course was set up on that particular day, or easily be able to find out.

 

[Bdill93]

Winter at my place -

3 comps a week - All qualifiers still - no temp greens at our place.

If conditions are awful and/or the course is very hard to play (on the day) - Q status gets changed to NQ before the comp tees off in the AM - email goes to all participants.

Social scores still allowed.

A few more stablefords than medals

A few more team/ pairs/ fun events this time of year too

 

[patricks148]

We have no comps in winter at Nairn, only this is an eclectic, which I can't be bothered with. The kings were going to make the winter league qual, but funny enough it hasn't happened, esp as the M&H is the biggest bandit at the club and finds it easy to shoot mid 70's gross when it suites and there's NQ prize money..

 

[wjemather]

Winter at my place -

3 comps a week - All qualifiers still - no temp greens at our place.

If conditions are awful and/or the course is very hard to play (on the day) - Q status gets changed to NQ before the comp tees off in the AM - email goes to all participants.

Social scores still allowed.

A few more stablefords than medals

A few more team/ pairs/ fun events this time of year too

From CONGU's guidance, G2.1a(1): "WHS requires that rounds in ‘organized competitions’ in an acceptable format are considered to have been pre-registered."

Things like poor conditions, or the course being (subjectively) "very hard to play", do not affect the validity of scores for handicapping. Unless there is something about these competitions that breaches Rule 2.1, the committee cannot simply declare them non-qualifiers, since all acceptable competition rounds are considered pre-registered under the Rules of Handicapping.

 

[Bdill93]

From CONGU's guidance, G2.1a(1): "WHS requires that rounds in ‘organized competitions’ in an acceptable format are considered to have been pre-registered."

Things like poor conditions, or the course being (subjectively) "very hard to play", do not affect the validity of scores for handicapping. Unless there is something about these competitions that breaches Rule 2.1, the committee cannot simply declare them non-qualifiers, since all acceptable competition rounds are considered pre-registered under the Rules of Handicapping.

Its the committee/ club owners that decide this, not me, so I cant speak for the rules etc they follow.

But if they didnt, about 3 people would turn up. I certainly wouldnt bother showing, knowing that I will card a bad round in hammering rain. No penalty for a no show - then you have a block of tees being un-used....

 

[Deleted member 3432]

Don't understand this obsession of wanting us to play qualifiers in winter.

It's cold, wet and miserable, I play to get out in some fresh air and to try and keep the swing in some of order over winter. Not going anywhere near a scorecard while playing Mickey Mouse winter golf. It's not proper golf and never will be.

 

[Smiffy]

Our qualifiers carry on during winter, but I won't be playing in any of them. Plugged balls, mats, water filled bunkers, dead leaves and wormcasts everywhere. Biting wind, low, watery sun and mud caked shoes and trousers don't hold any appeal to me whatsoever.
My clubs are away now and won't be coming back out until the clocks go forward again in March.

 

[rosecott]

Our qualifiers carry on during winter, but I won't be playing in any of them. Plugged balls, mats, water filled bunkers, dead leaves and wormcasts everywhere. Biting wind, low, watery sun and mud caked shoes and trousers don't hold any appeal to me whatsoever.
My clubs are away now and won't be coming back out until the clocks go forward again in March.

You've always been a big softy.

 

[SammmeBee]

From CONGU's guidance, G2.1a(1): "WHS requires that rounds in ‘organized competitions’ in an acceptable format are considered to have been pre-registered."

Things like poor conditions, or the course being (subjectively) "very hard to play", do not affect the validity of scores for handicapping. Unless there is something about these competitions that breaches Rule 2.1, the committee cannot simply declare them non-qualifiers, since all acceptable competition rounds are considered pre-registered under the Rules of Handicapping.

But like many Committees….they just follow the bits that suit them and ignore the bits that don’t!!

 

[HomerJSimpson]

We play all our comps off the yellows in the winter. Only exception is the winter matchplay which is a better ball comp that is played off the whites. No idea why but thats how it has always been in the captains book of comps. The yellows don't make a huge difference except for the first, second, twelfth and seventeenth.

 

[IanM]

Don't understand this obsession of wanting us to play qualifiers in winter.

It's cold, wet and miserable, I play to get out in some fresh air and to try and keep the swing in some of order over winter. Not going anywhere near a scorecard while playing Mickey Mouse winter golf. It's not proper golf and never will be.

You'll be prison for this soon..... but I think you'll have plenty of folk in there with you!

 

[SammmeBee]

We play all our comps off the yellows in the winter. Only exception is the winter matchplay which is a better ball comp that is played off the whites. No idea why but thats how it has always been in the captains book of comps. The yellows don't make a huge difference except for the first, second, twelfth and seventeenth.

Just the 2 shot difference thorough…..I’d say that’s massive!

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Don't understand this obsession of wanting us to play qualifiers in winter.

It's cold, wet and miserable, I play to get out in some fresh air and to try and keep the swing in some of order over winter. Not going anywhere near a scorecard while playing Mickey Mouse winter golf. It's not proper golf and never will be.

We only play stablefords now until March. Off the yellows it 5836 compared to 6294 so a reasonable reduction and does give everyone more of a chance. We usually get a fair number scoring over 36 points so definitely playable in winter conditions. I like the idea of one comp per month (two in December as we have the turkey trot as well) just to keep it interesting. The rest of it is social golf and I'll play in my usual roll up groups.