Winter handicapping

[PaulMdj]

My course has a Blue course measured for Winter, i.e. from different tees. Most of the Winter play is off mats in all areas other than true rough. There are a variable number of main greens from all main to all temporary. Players who are scoring above their handicap regularly or winning competitions have their handicap reduced, and usually this remains at the lower level into the main golf season. I wonder if other clubs are doing this? I feel this may not be what England Golf recommend but I can't find anything on the issue. Any thoughts?

If the comps meet the criteria to be qualifiers then there should be no issue, however, the use of mats in the way you describe seems wrong for it to be a qualifying course.

Our course is set up exactly as you describe yours except we only use it as qualifying when the mats are in use on fairways and closely mown to fairway height. (There is a correct local rule for using mats).

When the course was too wet for greenkeepers to define fairways, our use of mats was extended throughout the course and comps were non-qualifying.

 

[KenL]

At ours we have compulsory mats on fairways and semi-rough in bounce games. If you decide that you are putting in a hcp score, or playing in a medal, you must not use your mat in the semi.

 

[Magcargo]

I praise any club that keeps markers on in winter when the course has not been reconfigured enough to invalidate ratings. Sadly I still see too many that switch off markers all winter for no reason. This does not help/encourage beginners, who may wish to enter lots of general play scores into WHS.

 

[wjemather]

My course has a Blue course measured for Winter, i.e. from different tees. Most of the Winter play is off mats in all areas other than true rough. There are a variable number of main greens from all main to all temporary. Players who are scoring above their handicap regularly or winning competitions have their handicap reduced, and usually this remains at the lower level into the main golf season. I wonder if other clubs are doing this? I feel this may not be what England Golf recommend but I can't find anything on the issue. Any thoughts?

Per EG: running secondary winter handicap systems is not permitted.
Per the RoH: handicap committees have the power to review handicaps (and apply adjustments based on the evidence). However...
Temporary greens commonly make holes shorter, which makes scoring easier; playing from a mat in the rough also makes scoring easier; so adjustment on the basis of beating handicap must take account of this.
Winning competitions is not sufficient evidence to apply a handicap reduction (results being dependent on the performance of others).

 

[Magcargo]

If a course is sufficiently close to its rated length, number of full greens, and obviously not flooded etc, then markers should be on and available for general play scores, plus obviously competitions.

Played a place today that has reconfigured from short winter, to full winter, to full summer, across 5 days, and its markers have bene updated immediately.

Then I know of clubs that has markers switched off all "off-season" (no such thing)....yet I know they run comps etc. Are some members so terrified/vain that there handicap would rise by up to 5 that they don't want cards to go in during winter/shoulder periods?

Genuinely can't believe how inconsistent clubs are on this; but I accept I'm a relative newbie to the game.

 

[IanM]

Genuinely can't believe how inconsistent clubs are on this; but I accept I'm a relative newbie to the game.

I think that's a fair point. I think that's a function of the diversity of course conditions out there, and, the diversity of how clubs are run.

 

[Magcargo]

I see tees being turned off in WHS because they are likely to return higher scores, i.e. general winter conditions. I don't believe there is any criteria for that to be allowed/encouraged? I understand if too many temps, too short, or loads of standing water etc, but general soft ground conditions etc?

For balance, well aware that there are many clubs that leave tees on in WHS when they shouldn't be!

 

[clubchamp98]

I see tees being turned off in WHS because they are likely to return higher scores, i.e. general winter conditions. I don't believe there is any criteria for that to be allowed/encouraged? I understand if too many temps, too short, or loads of standing water etc, but general soft ground conditions etc?

For balance, well aware that there are many clubs that leave tees on in WHS when they shouldn't be!

At mine it’s down to conditions and most big projects are done in winter.
The greens staff are doing other things not just cutting the course.

If you leave the main tees on in winter they will be badly damaged as the grass isn’t growing in the colder months.
Also the surroundings/ ends of paths etc get muddy and then require remedial work.

It’s a thing that was discussed before WHS was introduced in the UK

Some courses are just not suitable for Q cards 12 months of the year!

 

[wjemather]

I see tees being turned off in WHS because they are likely to return higher scores, i.e. general winter conditions. I don't believe there is any criteria for that to be allowed/encouraged? I understand if too many temps, too short, or loads of standing water etc, but general soft ground conditions etc?

For balance, well aware that there are many clubs that leave tees on in WHS when they shouldn't be!

There is certainly widespread perception that winter scoring is worse but the data shows that it is not necessarily the reality. Winter conditions often mean lower rough, more receptive fairways and greens (effectively making them larger targets), slower greens, preferred lies/fairway mats, etc., all of which make scoring easier and largely offset any loss in distance.

There is guidance on when tees should be turned off but it relies on the judgement of club officials. It doesn't help when there are publications like NCG running articles like this one: "We need to move the start of the competition season once and for all" that reinforce the notion of shutting things down until mid-late April or even May. A great many courses are perfectly playable all year round, in all but the most extreme conditions.

 

[rulie]

I see tees being turned off in WHS because they are likely to return higher scores, i.e. general winter conditions. I don't believe there is any criteria for that to be allowed/encouraged? I understand if too many temps, too short, or loads of standing water etc, but general soft ground conditions etc?

For balance, well aware that there are many clubs that leave tees on in WHS when they shouldn't be!

Just checking - what is your definition of "many" and what is the source of your information?

 

[Magcargo]

I would say about 25% of the clubs within an hour's drive of me (maybe 5 of 20). There is one particular club which have markers in exactly the same place on the course but turn them off on weekdays and then turn them on for comps on a weekend, then off again on Monday. Markers have literally been in the same place in when they have been on and off on WHS/MyEG. Same week after week.

Many others have markers off all winter, but they do run comps, but I guess they can be run as non-qualifying - and one thing I don't know, can clubs switch off markers on MyEG app specifically and still allow WHS submission through terminals/PC etc? If so I guess that'd open another question - do they think too many non-members using MyEG app are sandbaggers?

I know it won't bother most people (and maybe it won't me next autumn!) but for newbies trying to get a settled handicap it is quite off-putting I feel.

 

[wjemather]

I would say about 25% of the clubs within an hour's drive of me (maybe 5 of 20). There is one particular club which have markers in exactly the same place on the course but turn them off on weekdays and then turn them on for comps on a weekend, then off again on Monday. Markers have literally been in the same place in when they have been on and off on WHS/MyEG. Same week after week.

Many others have markers off all winter, but they do run comps, but I guess they can be run as non-qualifying - and one thing I don't know, can clubs switch off markers on MyEG app specifically and still allow WHS submission through terminals/PC etc? If so I guess that'd open another question - do they think too many non-members using MyEG app are sandbaggers?

I know it won't bother most people (and maybe it won't me next autumn!) but for newbies trying to get a settled handicap it is quite off-putting I feel.

Turning off tee markers on the dotgolf WHS Platform (the back end for MyEG) doesn't affect the ability to submit scores through club software (ig, hdid, etc.). Clubs need to ensure both systems are in sync.

 

[Magcargo]

Very interesting, thanks for that. One club in particular probably thinks MyEG are sandbaggers, probably due to my (genuine) high GP scores ha ha.

 

[D-S]

Turning off tee markers on the dotgolf WHS Platform (the back end for MyEG) doesn't affect the ability to submit scores through club software (ig, hdid, etc.). Clubs need to ensure both systems are in sync.

It will do next winter.

 

[wjemather]

It will do next winter.

I'll believe it when I see it!!

 

[D-S]

I'll believe it when I see it!!

EG have said that it’ll be introduced on 1st July.

 

[wjemather]

EG have said that it’ll be introduced on 1st July.

Yeah, they say things like this all the time. The problem is, they don't have any real control over dotgolf's development process (and even less influence over other ISVs that have very different priorities).
We're still waiting on things that were touted as imminent more than a year ago (MyEG marker geo-location, same day submission, etc.) so I don't expect this will be any different.

 

[D-S]

Yeah, they say things like this all the time. The problem is, they don't have any real control over dotgolf's development process (and even less influence over other ISVs that have very different priorities).
We're still waiting on things that were touted as imminent more than a year ago (MyEG marker geo-location, same day submission, etc.) so I don't expect this will be any different.

I agree that we are waiting for things that would help golfers and club administrators but turning off ISV entry of GP scores will push traffic to their App, so the fact that it is in their own self interest will probably mean that this will be one thing that may well be to time.

 

[Backache]

I must say our club has now got a measured winter course and it would be much better for most if we didn't . In the west of Scotland the course is not often in great condition in winter and it's a complete farce having a qualifying competition when you could take relief from casual water over about 20% of the area.

 

[rulefan]

casual water

Temporary Water

Someone's got to say it