Club Fittings - science in action or snake oil for sale?

[Blue in Munich]

Thats usually the tack that is tried when someone has already lost the real debate - when proof cannot be given, shift the burden of proof to one of disproof by others.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot

Well, follow your own advice then; you say it doesn't work, prove it, rather than expecting the rest of us to disprove your position by proving that it does.

 

[the_coach]

for sure there is no substitute for 'good sound technique' to improve folks - mostly folks don't take advantage of the best ways to improve that technique that being lessons with PGA Pro

{and a PGA Pro is in an unique 'place' to be able 'fit' clubs for folks, given swing knowledge and accurate measuring tech}

from the get-go folks considering going for a custom fit should go and do that but with realistic expectations that custon fit clubs are not on their own a magic improvement if other areas of good technique and good training practice ain't being addressed
(imo folks should be going to get fit if the $'s allow that - but on that it's a better ways to go get fit - than buy then change and buy over again several sets that were not fit but bought just to see if 'acquiring new clubs' would help any when the issue and problems don't lie with the stuff being swung)

for sure a golfer taking lessons and also having the best 'fit in their golf clubs' then has the very best opportunity for more consistent results with their best swings they put on the ball
plus also having the best opportunity for a considerable narrowing down of their worse shot results giving then much better opportunity to improve on the scores week on week

a player having the lessons but using clubs not the 'best fit for the swing' has narrowed that opportunity to improve the score week on week a ways as not having the best fit will hamper strike, distance control and accuracy and distance

a player having no lessons to improve plus a not so great technique and no 'best fit for the swing' has even less opportunity again to improve the score week on week

now 'fitting results' can be, and are being qualified by the physics and math of launch monitor data
so there can be and is a direct comparison of data with differing OEM's clubs, model ranges, and the make-up of those clubs in regard to clubhead performance, shaft performance so folks have proof in the data that there is for sure 'substance' in club fitting

the myth for real is that 'fitting' isn't for higher index players' with the cry being it's due to the fact that the swing motion is not reliable or repeatable so fit is really just for Tour Pro's or elite golfers - but in reality higher index players stand to get a bigger improvement overall than elite players

if the measure of benefit of proper club fitting mid to higher index players is experiencing visible and measurable improvement in shot distance, distance control, accuracy so scores so over time index improvement after being fit then mid/high index players most often get this to a bigger degree and more often after a custom fit than lower index players as there's a bunch bigger area to improve with the mid/higher index players than the elite golfer where the area to improve is exponentially smaller

 

[Oohmeoldbacksknackered]

... Thats what is being sold - improvement without practice
......
If there is substance to the club fitting, then it should improve a golfer, full stop.

I think I see where the problem is.
You're basing your argument on the wrong definition.
No reputable pro / manufacturer that I've heard of ever suggests that fitting is the be all to game improvement.
If you want / expect / believe there is a simple one stop answer then you're playing the wrong game.
Club fitting works as a general principle. Once you accept that you will stop seeing this terrible conspiracy around every corner.
It may not have worked for you when you tried it. But maybe you were doing it with the wrong person.😱
Peace
😘

 

[Alucard]

I think that the vast majority of golfers can fit themselves once they understand how to grip the club and address the ball correctly by going for a course of lessons. Their pro can also see if the club sits correctly at address and only really ill fitting clubs will destroy a persons game.
If a person wants to get as much as they can out of golf (performance wise) better to get some old blades that give less help and have lessons with a good teaching pro, rather than spend money on a fitting that you are not ready for.

Once you have the basics of the game and you are hitting the old blades pretty well much of the time then you can learn to work the ball by hitting High, Low, Draw, Fade etc by changing stance or ball position etc.

If you then later decide to get fit then I feel sure the golfer will benefit by having clubs with a slightly bigger sweet spot that will help he or she to be even more consistent.
Practice will certainly improve your game provided you practice right and often.

There are the majority of people that will be suited well enough to learn by off the peg clubs.
Pings fitting chart is usually accurate enough to get lofts and lies correct by simply measuring your hands from the floor at address and seeing how the club sits and anyway if you buy half a set of old forged blades to start with you can have them bent by your good teaching pro for a fraction of the cost of getting fit for new clubs.
Some people need to believe that they have the perfect clubs for them and a fitting gives them this confidence and it may help them mentally.

Golf is not so precise for all the shots though as we have to grip down sometimes and move the ball around in our stances lean back or Forward on uphill and downhill lies sometimes all these things together.
If you are fit with a full shot ball inside left heel then if you change this then you change the fitting.
Practicing the right way is the only surefire way to improve.

 

[Oohmeoldbacksknackered]

I think that the vast majority of golfers can fit themselves once they understand how to grip the club and address the ball correctly by going for a course of lessons. Their pro can also see if the club sits correctly at address and only really ill fitting clubs will destroy a persons game.
If a person wants to get as much as they can out of golf (performance wise) better to get some old blades that give less help and have lessons with a good teaching pro, rather than spend money on a fitting that you are not ready for.

Once you have the basics of the game and you are hitting the old blades pretty well much of the time then you can learn to work the ball by hitting High, Low, Draw, Fade etc by changing stance or ball position etc.

If you then later decide to get fit then I feel sure the golfer will benefit by having clubs with a slightly bigger sweet spot that will help he or she to be even more consistent.
Practice will certainly improve your game provided you practice right and often.

There are the majority of people that will be suited well enough to learn by off the peg clubs.
Pings fitting chart is usually accurate enough to get lofts and lies correct by simply measuring your hands from the floor at address and seeing how the club sits and anyway if you buy half a set of old forged blades to start with you can have them bent by your good teaching pro for a fraction of the cost of getting fit for new clubs.
Some people need to believe that they have the perfect clubs for them and a fitting gives them this confidence and it may help them mentally.

Golf is not so precise for all the shots though as we have to grip down sometimes and move the ball around in our stances lean back or Forward on uphill and downhill lies sometimes all these things together.
If you are fit with a full shot ball inside left heel then if you change this then you change the fitting.
Practicing the right way is the only surefire way to improve.

Good post.
Just one question...

Why do you play an R7 Quad rather than an old persimmon driver?
And how much did you pay for it?

😇

 

[Alucard]

Good post.
Just one question...

Why do you play an R7 Quad rather than an old persimmon driver?
And how much did you pay for it?



I have a Ping laminated driver that I practice with sometimes but I hit the ball further with the Quad that I bought a couple of months ago from a 2nd hand bin in a golf shop in Alvor.

I paid 35 euros for it and it is the best money I ever spent. I smoke it 30 to 50 yards past most people with the modern technologies drives and usually find the fairway.

I also have a set of Ping eye 2 clubs that are my main set (the best clubs ping ever made in my opinion) but I have been practicing with the Slazenger blades I bought last month for 68 quid to hone in my swing and the practice is paying off.

I was on the driving range this morning at 6.30am working on shaping the ball right and left with the Adams hybrid I have, thats the only modern club I own but I think that its useful from the light rough as well as the fairway and I can hit a high fade, a lower draw or a really low stinger with it.

 

[3565]

Thats usually the tack that is tried when someone has already lost the real debate - when proof cannot be given, shift the burden of proof to one of disproof by others.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot

ive not lost anything. The proof for me is not in the research online to quantify that club fitting works or not, it's in the trying that majority will look for. It's been proven to me that getting fitted helps, but like the coach says it's also in conjunction to a good and solid foundation. I've seen that a shorter length driver gets me consistency in centred hits, that's club fitting, seen that the wrong length shaft and lie in your irons, even with a consistent swing, doesn't help, that's club fitting.

You are the one shouting from the roof tops about this, but it's been proven to me that it can contribute and will help as have many others who have gone down that route.

 

[garyinderry]

There is a video of rick shiels trying irons which were extremely upright and then flat to show how it affected his ball flight.

Proof that indeed lie angle will help a player if adjusted correctly.

Will find it later and post it for those interested.

 

[thesheriff]

Had my first experience of the GC2 monitor at AG at the weekend. Made it clear I wasn't necessarily looking to buy that day, but I was desperate to get on a launch monitor and hit some drivers and they were happy to oblige. Hit a couple of drivers with a few different shafts for a taster.

Superb experience and something I'll be happy to pay for when buying new club. Would I expect the fitting alone to change my game significantly? No, but wow would I feel like the man with new custom fit clubs I've smashed on GC2, which may indeed lead to better scores.

Marginal gains from club fitting + boost in confidence and motivation with custom fit gear = potential lower scores

A few observations from the data:

My swing speed is much lower than I thought - 92ish mph average, maxing out at 100mph
Carry distance is much lower than I thought - 220 yards average, maxing out at 260

The guy asked me to come back with my own driver next time to get comparative data (I didn't bring it as it was an unplanned visit). Anyways, I can see where this is heading. I just hope I can hold on til birthday/xmas/bonus/lottery win.

 

[Alucard]

There is a video of rick shiels trying irons which were extremely upright and then flat to show how it affected his ball flight.

Proof that indeed lie angle will help a player if adjusted correctly.

Will find it later and post it for those interested.

I have seen that video, Rick Shiels openly admits that he is one of the majority of people that is suited to a standard Lie.

But for the video he has a Forged Iron Bent upright and then Flat to unfeasible positions to prove a point that everyone knows that a club with the Heel right up in the air at correct address or toe right up in the air at correct address can affect ball flight.

The only thing this really proves is that only an idiot would game clubs so ill fitting and nobody should need a fitting to see something so obvious by themselves.

 

[garyinderry]

It was only 4 degrees I think.


He went to the extreme as an experiment.

It would be quite common for those buying off the rack or second hand to be at least a degree or two or without noticing.


I bought some irons recently and have been told they were one degree flatter than standard.

Yeah, like an idiot I haven't got on a lie board yet and I am aware of these things. Many others won't have a clue.

 

[Alucard]

It was only 4 degrees I think.


He went to the extreme as an experiment.

It would be quite common for those buying off the rack or second hand to be at least a degree or two or without noticing.


I bought some irons recently and have been told they were one degree flatter than standard.

Yeah, like an idiot I haven't got on a lie board yet and I am aware of these things. Many others won't have a clue.

Flatter may be better as then you can swing the club more freely instead of on too steep a plane.

To quote another view of this subject from an expert.

"Since the focus on custom-fitting began, we've seen a huge trend to fit clubs more upright in lie angle than the manufacturer standard specifications, but is this always the right solution?

More often than not, when the golfer is digging the toe into the ground, a swing path alteration is the better solution than to adjust the clubs.

That's because clubs' lie angles are derived from a study of the best players in the game, the tour professionals. These guys (and ladies) know how to strike a golf ball in the most efficient manner possible, and even the tallest players do not have their irons adjusted more than a degree or two upright, at the most!

So why do I see so many recreational golfers, of normal height, begin fitted 3 and even 4 degrees or more upright? Because they do not understand the simple physics of the proper path of the hands through the impact zone. Almost every recreational golfer comes through the impact zone with their hands too high . . . too far away from their body . . . so that the angle of approach to the ball is too steep. The toe digs in and a poor shot results.
Makes me wonder about how effective fitting really is?

Rather than adjust the clubs' lie angle several degrees upright, which will permanently trap the golfer into this incorrect path to the ball, wouldn’t it be smarter to use that club feedback to help you find the proper path to the ball, so you can hit better quality shots? "

 

[Oohmeoldbacksknackered]

I have a Ping laminated driver that I practice with sometimes but I hit the ball further with the Quad that I bought a couple of months ago from a 2nd hand bin in a golf shop in Alvor.

I paid 35 euros for it and it is the best money I ever spent. I smoke it 30 to 50 yards past most people with the modern technologies drives and usually find the fairway.

I also have a set of Ping eye 2 clubs that are my main set (the best clubs ping ever made in my opinion) but I have been practicing with the Slazenger blades I bought last month for 68 quid to hone in my swing and the practice is paying off.

I was on the driving range this morning at 6.30am working on shaping the ball right and left with the Adams hybrid I have, thats the only modern club I own but I think that its useful from the light rough as well as the fairway and I can hit a high fade, a lower draw or a really low stinger with it.

You can go off people, you know...
😜👍
I think it's safe to say not too many people out there are likely to be on the range at 6.30 and even fewer will have paid that sort of money for their driver.
Good luck with your bargains..

 

[Alucard]

You can go off people, you know...

I think it's safe to say not too many people out there are likely to be on the range at 6.30 and even fewer will have paid that sort of money for their driver.
Good luck with your bargains..

Lol thanks, I have to go then to get my practice in before I go and feed my team of racing pigeons and then after that its a bit too hot to practice.

 

[Oohmeoldbacksknackered]

Rather than adjust the clubs' lie angle several degrees upright, which will permanently trap the golfer into this incorrect path to the ball, wouldn’t it be smarter to use that club feedback to help you find the proper path to the ball, so you can hit better quality shots? "

Isn't this just a different interpretation of how to action the figures at the fitting?
The fitting shows up the problem, then what you can do is X or Y.
Some players will go down the practice route. But if the player has had that same swing for 10 years and has always had the problem he may find the cost of the fitting solution more palatable than months/ years of painful practice.
Like I said a few ages ago. If someone has the money to spend and sees a benefit to themselves, then noone should say they shouldn't do it.
🤔

 

[garyinderry]

Is there somewhere you can view the pros lie angles ?

I'm couldn't find any when I looked before.


Pros certainly have clubs the correct length making major lie adjustments less necessary.

 

[Alex1975]

proper path to the ball, so you can hit better quality shots? "[/FONT][/COLOR]

And what is that please?

 

[Alucard]

And what is that please?

What is what? as I said I just quoted another golf expert that believes that golfers may be better off improving their existing swings rather than being locked into one that is deficient by clubs fitted to suit it.

With a more efficient swing you get a better smash factor or hit the sweet spot more often on the correct swing plane which may well equate to more distance and consistency.
At the end of the day everyone has to decide what is best for themselves individually and if they want to spend money being fitted for expensive clubs that is their business but a fitting is definitely not the holy grail and does not suit everyone.
The writer of the article I quoted correctly said that off the shelf club lies are based on Pro golfers angles of attack and their angles of attack are the most efficient in shifting a golf ball off in the right direction.. and that the Pros no matter how tall they are very rarely if ever have the clubs bent upright more than 1 or 2 degrees as this is inefficient.

The bottom line is that I believe that a fitting will not improve everyones game as is being claimed all too often by some but may help some golfers, if not physically improving their game it can help mentally.
The main thing is to enjoy the game and do not get too bogged down with manufacturers and sales mens spin as they are just out to sell clubs.

 

[Alucard]

So having the lie angle that fits your rather than a stock one?!!!!

According to the expert I quoted a stock one will fit most golfers provided they learn to swing the club on the right plane. I have pieced together some of his other points below.

Pro golfers no matter how tall they are only ever have the club bent no more upright than 1 or 2 degrees at most if any, as below this is the most efficient swing plane.
While it seems that fitters are fitting ordinary players 3 or 4 degrees upright or more and locking them into an inefficient swing plane rather than suggesting that the player cures the problem by practice.

It can never be as good making the club fit the swing as the smash factor is wrong from attacking the ball from a too upright plane.



What angle is the correct swing plane?

I have read and I believe that the correct swing plane is usually a little flatter and the one that gives maximum distance with the long irons and accuracy with the short irons.
The correct swing and on the right plane can adapt to hit any club well. Even a club head on the end of a hosepipe as has been seen and done.

I think the older clubs standard lies are flatter than the modern clubs and the fittings usually fit people even more upright and according to physics this is not so efficient.
For example Hogans club in the USGA golf museum is 6 or 7 degrees flatter than the modern clubs standard lie,Trevino was the same and Doug Sanders similar.

These are some of the best ball strikers in the history of the game.

Compare that to the modern Tour pros not having their clubs bent upright by more than one or to degrees at most no matter what their height, there has to be a question.

Why are fittings suggesting weekend golfers have clubs bent upright 3 or 4 or more degrees? and is it really the right thing to do? especially as modern clubs standard lies tend to already be more upright than the older clubs lies when there were only blades and 1,2 and 3 irons in the bag and you had to learn to hit them to compete.

Some of Todays clubs should come with a warning label "Swing Deterioration and poor mechanics possible by using this club" lol.

The bottom line is that there are very few really good ball strikers at any level in todays game, (maybe Stenson is one), on course or driving range Feedback of the club and swing is needed for improvement to take place. Thats why golfers are not improving.

Golfers in many cases no longer know the difference between a real good strike and a bad strike due to perimeter weighting and large sweet spots not allowing such reference.

The equipment that most golfers are using is not designed to help them become more swing efficient but to try and hide inefficiencies.

As I say though each to their own and if anyone wants to spend a lot of cash on Clubs and a fitting then do it but it is not the holy grail and it will not improve everyones game and it may even hold some players games back due to the points I have raised.

We have to remember that manufacturers and salesmen want your money and will in many cases (not all) tell you what you want to hear to make a sale.

 

[MadAdey]

The idea of custom fitting is to fit the clubs to the person. Maybe some people do have some crazy adjustments made, but that is what enables them to get the most from their swing. Should some people maybe sort out their swing so it is on a better swing plane, possibly. But that same person probably does not have the time or money to invest in making major swing changes so they have to use what they've got.

Is custom fitting the holy grail to getting a a big handicap cut, no not at all. It may help you shave a couple off a round due to you striking the ball more consistently, but that is it. But is getting fitted CORRECTLY going to make you a worse player, definitely not. So seeing as all the major brands give free fitting you would be mad not to take advantage of it.