Club Fittings - science in action or snake oil for sale?

[Blue in Munich]

Actually even club-fitters admit that is not simply a case that tall people require longer clubs and more diminutive players shorter.

If you think fitting works for you fine but nobody can conclusively prove that it will make a difference to all players.

Nor did I suggest that was the case.

I did suggest that the same club was unlikely to suit both of us equally well, if it suited either of us at all. I'm also not claiming that buying a set of custom made clubs will see me, or anyone else winning tournaments hand over fist. All I'm claiming is that having a set of clubs that fits me better gives me a better chance of producing my best golf more often, just as adjusting the driving seat to suit allows me the best chance to drive the car well. It's not an easy game & I don't see the need to make it any harder than it needs to be.

You wouldn't go to play wearing the wrong size shirt, trousers or shoes; so why would you go with the wrong size clubs?

 

[3565]

The OP was JohnnyDee. Johnny is a lovely little fella; little, relative to me, being the operative word. Given our substantial difference in size, I seriously doubt whether I could get into the driver's seat of Johnny's car, let alone drive it; Johnny meanwhile could comfortably get into my driver's seat but simply wouldn't reach the pedals. The set up of each vehicle relative to its respective driver allows that driver to perform more comfortably, and consequently better.

No you don't get custom fitted for a car seat, but it does allow you the option to change your position to best suit yourself. Were Johnny & I to have to drive the same car with the same seat fixed in the one position, it would suit one of us slightly better than the other, but probably would suit neither of us well. Move that to a golf club and it should be fairly obvious to a sensible thinking individual that the standard fit golf club that you would have both of us use will have the same effect as a fixed drivers seat; it will allow neither of us to start from the best address position and consequently our ability to perform will to some degree be compromised.

Your response is not to provide a sensible counter argument but simply to call the analogy daft. My experience is that people who call everyone else's explanations daft without being able to provide a logical counter argument are usually the stupid ones. Having been asked to provide some constructive debate you've ignored the opportunity and reverted to type. I rest my case.






Only some? You do surprise me. :rofl:

:thup:

 

[3565]

Nor did I suggest that was the case.

I did suggest that the same club was unlikely to suit both of us equally well, if it suited either of us at all. I'm also not claiming that buying a set of custom made clubs will see me, or anyone else winning tournaments hand over fist. All I'm claiming is that having a set of clubs that fits me better gives me a better chance of producing my best golf more often, just as adjusting the driving seat to suit allows me the best chance to drive the car well. It's not an easy game & I don't see the need to make it any harder than it needs to be.

You wouldn't go to play wearing the wrong size shirt, trousers or shoes; so why would you go with the wrong size clubs?

Is their any proof that wearing oversize/undersized clothing and shoes would deteriorate your game as much as custom fit would improve it?

 

[Oohmeoldbacksknackered]

If there is any logic, we havent seen it in this thread, nor am I aware of it anywhere else.

Your post is a perfect example of the non-logic, and general woolly thinking that is employed in the delusional thinking about club fitting.

'Which is more wonga' is in no way a conclusion that there is merit to club fitting.
And the more half-baked fluff that is put out to try to justify it, the more the snake oil view of it is enhanced.

I think you and I have different definitions of the word logic.
The whole aim of being professional is to earn money.
To earn money you need to be better than as many of your peers as possible.
Professional golfers need to be as consistent as possible for as much of the season as possible.
To do that they want the best possible tools for the job.
So they have a team of people providing them with that.

I think the logic chain is simple.
You think there is no advantage to fitting clubs.
Every successful professional thinks there is.
They earn more money at their profession than you do
Therefore their group opinion holds more water than yours.
Again - a logical conclusion.

Not to say you aren't entitled to your opinion. But to ridicule people who earn money using something you think is a waste of time seems to me to be the illogical reaction.

 

[Oohmeoldbacksknackered]

Actually even club-fitters admit that is not simply a case that tall people require longer clubs and more diminutive players shorter.

If you think fitting works for you fine but nobody can conclusively prove that it will make a difference to all players.

Yes!

Something we can agree on.

Nothing works for all players.

But because it DOES work for some means that it works. Full stop

And that means that there is value in it.

It's just down to the individual what that value is in terms of financial outlay.

 

[bobmac]

My neighbour is 70 and is having trouble hitting his driver straight. He hits it to the right and loses 2 or 3 balls per round.
I checked his swing and grip and surprisingly both looked fine.
When I checked his driver I saw the problem.....Regular shaft.
I gave him another driver with the same loft but with a soft regular shaft to try.
He used it the next day and only missed one fairway in the first cut.
A change in shaft saved him 4-6 penalty shots per round.

 

[Oohmeoldbacksknackered]

Will it instantly knock shots of someone's handicap as j have seen claimed many times.?

Nothing in golf should be instantaneous, otherwise it would make the game too easy and we'd all get bored.
But, with regular monitoring it maximises performance at the top level. (Last notch maybe, but it's there as part of the package)
So I think it's logical to think it would work the same for most.
The thing is, how often should it be done? If someone is a 24 handicapper they would need to put it together as part of a training/practice/playing package for it to be worthwhile in my opinion.
But then, I personally don't see the point in buying a £300 driver until you get down to single figures.
However, I would never challenge anyone's right to do either.

Also, if I was to invest £300 in one club it would make sense to me to spend an extra few quid on getting it fitted, at least with a nice floppy shaft - I'm never going to get enough club head speed to warrant anything else.

I also agree that there are probably far too many people out there claiming to be able to offer the service who really don't know their onions. But that's the same for all services industries.

 

[Oohmeoldbacksknackered]

My neighbour is 70 and is having trouble hitting his driver straight. He hits it to the right and loses 2 or 3 balls per round.
I checked his swing and grip and surprisingly both looked fine.
When I checked his driver I saw the problem.....Regular shaft.
I gave him another driver with the same loft but with a soft regular shaft to try.
He used it the next day and only missed one fairway in the first cut.
A change in shaft saved him 4-6 penalty shots per round.

'Nuff said.

😎👌

 

[Smiffy]

A change in shaft saved him 4-6 penalty shots per round.

That's hardly a "fitting" though Bob is it?

 

[delc]

There are at least some things that have to be right about a set of clubs. I would suggest lie angle, grip size, shaft length and approximate shaft stiffness, in that order. Back in the 1960's I was a reasonably decent junior golfer using a set of John Letters Master Model clubs. I used these for a while when I took up golf again in middle age, but when the shafts started breaking, I bought a new set of standard irons. From then on I struggled (shanking and fat shots) because modern clubs seem to be longer and more upright, presumably because the average person has got taller, but I hadn't. Eventually I had a custom fit which showed that I needed the lie set a bit flatter than standard and my game improved a lot after that. My current spec is standard length, regular shafts, 2 degree flat lie and one or two extra layers of tape under the grips.

 

[guest100718]

That's hardly a "fitting" though Bob is it?

It's an anecdote

 

[bobmac]

That's hardly a "fitting" though Bob is it?

The regular shaft was too stiff for his swing speed and he couldn't square up the face at impact.
By changing the shaft to a softer shaft, he was able to square up the face.
So with no change to his set up or technique, he can now hit it straight saving him 4-6 shots per round.

 

[Smiffy]

The regular shaft was too stiff for his swing speed and he couldn't square up the face at impact.
By changing the shaft to a softer shaft, he was able to square up the face.
So with no change to his set up or technique, he can now hit it straight saving him 4-6 shots per round.

But that's what I've always said.
In the "good old days" (before fitting became so popular) you went into a pro shop and bought a set of off the peg clubs with shafts that matched your swing speed. That's all you needed.
If you swung fast you bought stiff, swung normally you bought regular, swung slower you bought soft.
You've just pointed out the obvious to the guy.

 

[delc]

But that's what I've always said.
In the "good old days" (before fitting became so popular) you went into a pro shop and bought a set of off the peg clubs with shafts that matched your swing speed. That's all you needed.
If you swung fast you bought stiff, swung normally you bought regular, swung slower you bought soft.
You've just pointed out the obvious to the guy.

There is more to club fitting than just shaft flex!

 

[Oohmeoldbacksknackered]

There is more to club fitting than just shaft flex!

If that's the case I've been arguing the wrong point. I apologise.
My definition of 'fitting' is changing an off the shelf club to suit a player. Because of the way technology has advanced we can always look deeper and deeper into it.
But the logic is the same, surely.
A 70 year old (presumably) mid+ handicapper can't hit his driver so you change the club to stop him losing balls.
Today, Rory is hooking too many off the tee. So you adjust the head, shaft, and wonder if the grip needs an extra layer of tape, looking to keep the dispersion to a target number.
Same logic. Different actions.
The question, I thought, was does that help any golfers, or is it hogwash?
And is it worth club golfers taking advantage of the technology?
Again, obviously if it works for one it may work for any. So it's up to the individual how far they go with it.
If this guy comes back to Bob because he's started hooking 8 out of 10 drives but his swing hasn't changed, would you suggest he do anything to his club that may help?

 

[Oohmeoldbacksknackered]

But that's what I've always said.
In the "good old days" (before fitting became so popular) you went into a pro shop and bought a set of off the peg clubs with shafts that matched your swing speed. That's all you needed.
If you swung fast you bought stiff, swung normally you bought regular, swung slower you bought soft.
You've just pointed out the obvious to the guy.

But if you go back to the even gooder old days you couldn't do that you just had a steel shaft or a steel shaft. It was huge stuff when they started being able to adjust the swing point (old senile memory - what was the term they used when you could lower the point of flex further down the shaft to suit the faster swingers?)
That was a general question - I'm not presuming that you're old enough to remember this stuff.
But that was high grade fitting way, way back when....

 

[guest100718]

If that's the case I've been arguing the wrong point. I apologise.
My definition of 'fitting' is changing an off the shelf club to suit a player. Because of the way technology has advanced we can always look deeper and deeper into it.
But the logic is the same, surely.
A 70 year old (presumably) mid+ handicapper can't hit his driver so you change the club to stop him losing balls.
Today, Rory is hooking too many off the tee. So you adjust the head, shaft, and wonder if the grip needs an extra layer of tape, looking to keep the dispersion to a target number.
Same logic. Different actions.
The question, I thought, was does that help any golfers, or is it hogwash?
And is it worth club golfers taking advantage of the technology?
Again, obviously if it works for one it may work for any. So it's up to the individual how far they go with it.
If this guy comes back to Bob because he's started hooking 8 out of 10 drives but his swing hasn't changed, would you suggest he do anything to his club that may help?

The swing fault causing an 8 out of 10 hook will still be there..... opening the face a few degrees will just mask it for a.bit. maybe.

Better to practice and work on swing path etc.

 

[Oohmeoldbacksknackered]

The swing fault causing an 8 out of 10 hook will still be there..... opening the face a few degrees will just mask it for a.bit. maybe.

Better to practice and work on swing path etc.

But is a mid handicapper 70 year old going to get much out of that sort of swing rebuild? Given that although his swing is wrong, its consistent, so helping him with a technical adjustment means he hits the ball straighter and enjoys the game more.
Btw you know far more about this fitting stuff that I do - I was thinking of going back to a slightly stiffer shaft 😊

 

[delc]

But if you go back to the even gooder old days you couldn't do that you just had a steel shaft or a steel shaft. It was huge stuff when they started being able to adjust the swing point (old senile memory - what was the term they used when you could lower the point of flex further down the shaft to suit the faster swingers?)
That was a general question - I'm not presuming that you're old enough to remember this stuff.
But that was high grade fitting way, way back when....

Lower kickpoint for weaker players who have difficulty getting the ball in the air, higher kickpoint for better players to stop them ballooning the ball too high in the air.

 

[bobmac]

But is a mid handicapper 70 year old going to get much out of that sort of swing rebuild? Given that although his swing is wrong, its consistent, so helping him with a technical adjustment means he hits the ball straighter and enjoys the game more.
Btw you know far more about this fitting stuff that I do - I was thinking of going back to a slightly stiffer shaft 

If you read my post again you'll see I checked his swing and grip and they were both fine.
I expected to see a weak grip which may have explained the open clubface, especially when combined with an out to in swingpath.
But they were fine so I'm not going to fix something that isn't broken.
The cure, as I have already mentioned, was to get a shaft that suited his reduction in swing speed, hence the softer shaft.