Change to whs ?

[Orikoru]

Yeah that's what they need to - make it even more complicated than it already is. *bangs head on wall*

Needless to say, it would be a stupid change. Since if two of your lowest rounds were already general play cards you'd put in, then there would be no point putting in anymore cards outside of comps until they'd dropped to the bottom of your record would there?

 

[Aztecs27]

Can someone, in layman's terms, explain how this would affect someone like me, who uses iGolf to submit GP cards to gain a playing handicap (i.e. one that I can use in days like H4H and not have to guess my H'Cap based on my last official handicap 10 years ago)

 

[Imurg]

Can someone, in layman's terms, explain how this would affect someone like me, who uses iGolf to submit GP cards to gain a playing handicap (i.e. one that I can use in days like H4H and not have to guess my H'Cap based on my last official handicap 10 years ago)

You're screwed..

 

[Aztecs27]

You're screwed..

can always count on you for support old chap.

 

[Backache]

Can someone, in layman's terms, explain how this would affect someone like me, who uses iGolf to submit GP cards to gain a playing handicap (i.e. one that I can use in days like H4H and not have to guess my H'Cap based on my last official handicap 10 years ago)

No one can possibly know because it is a rumour that may well not come to fruition and almost certainly not in the precise way that anyone here currently knows.

 

[Swango1980]

I presume if this ever did come into play you could submit, for example, 14 general play cards and 6 comps and that would be fine?

Sounds simple, until it isn't. Let us say a player has 14 general play rounds and 6 competition rounds.

That would mean that all 6 competition rounds would HAVE to be in the top 8, which would be incredible if many / all of those 8 rounds were worse than all the general play rounds.

Secondly, what if 20th oldest score was a competition round, and then a general play round was then submitted? Would the system ignore the latest general play round to ensure that the oldest competition round is not lost. But then what would happen if a competition score was then entered after that? Would it find the general play round score it ignored before (so long as another competition round was not lost), because now the record meets the "6 competition round" criteria.

It sounds either completely unworkable, or if it was to be made workable it is likely to get incredibly confusing.

 

[Crow]

Maybe it's for scratch/elite comps where a ballot is used and they feel that too many players are entering with handicaps that suggest that they're better than they are and so are pushing out golfers with handicaps acquired in the heat of a tournament?

 

[Foxholer]

Don't know if this has been discussed before but a strong rumour coming out (from a member of a St.Andrews club who is good friends with an 'ITK' R&A member) is a change is being considered in that of the 8 best counting rounds from 20 a maximum if 2 can be from General Play rounds. For me personally who traditionally scores lower in 'bounce' gp games than in medals it would increase my current hi by 1.0 from 4.8 to 5.8, if gp scores were to be removed completely my hi would increase to 7.9
Talk is that it's being considered due to the increasing number of + and scratch h'caps, makes sense in our club anyway where we now have a lot more folk with these h'caps than before, many of them would never have got that low pre whs

As this would fundamentally change UK's version from that of the rest of the world, I seriously doubt it's a 'real' consideration.
Maybe someone's wishful thinking. I don't see any problem with more folk having low handicaps if that reflects their ability. Clubs can simply lower their cutoff value it's affecting the likes of open competition entries.

 

[Neilds]

Are you sure? Don't know how many members you have, but you'd if you didn't even have one player at the club who did a bit of unreasonable handicap manipulation from time to time. It might not have been picked up (yet), and/or could be a member who you are not even aware of as they never enter any club competitions (so not really known to the wider membership).

I would assume you will always get players like that everywhere. Some will be much more devious, others will ignorantly not see themselves as doing anything wrong. One guy we sometimes play with didn't want to submit a social score a few months ago, as he didn't want a cut before the competition next week. Low and behold, he won that competition (over 100 in the field), and won the following week for good measure. Sure, it is his right to not submit a score in general play. However, I am almost certain that if he had been playing badly, or the 20th score he loses was a good one in his top 8, he WOULD submit a general play round. Therefore, chances are he'd get a handicap increase before the next competition. This can be handicap manipulation by stealth, in that the player is still genuinely trying to score well in general play (i.e. not intentionally hitting bad shots / missing putts), but using their right to decide when to pre-register and submit a general play round based on what score they will be losing and what may replace it, and what impact that may have on handicap.

I’ve heard some good conspiracies on this forum but this seems to be up there with the best! You honestly believe that the reason he won two comps was because he didn’t put in a general play card to reduce the risk of being cut a small amount?!?! To have any real effect on your handicap you would have to shoot about 20 under your handicap after the calculations have been done.

 

[jim8flog]

Could it be that this is largely going to be for Cat 1:golfers?
As a mid- high handicapper I don't do general play scores anyway. It doesn't really suit how I play golf far to much faff.

There are no longer Categories under the WHS. The only reason for having them prior to the WHS was so alterations for handicap followed a different formula for downward movement according to what Cat you were in.

 

[patricks148]

Nothing would surprise me of the folks that run golf, but wouldn't effect me or most at my club, next to no GP scores go in compared to medal rounds. I've never put in a GP score since WHS, neither have any of yhe guys I reg play with.

But I have heard some are putting lots, heard of one guy in the CB having over 150 GP scores

 

[pendodave]

Maybe it's for scratch/elite comps where a ballot is used and they feel that too many players are entering with handicaps that suggest that they're better than they are and so are pushing out golfers with handicaps acquired in the heat of a tournament?

Everyone has the option of playing general play rounds.
Increasing the requirement for formal comp rounds would seem to run against the basic premise of penning up the handicapping system to all.

 

[Swango1980]

I’ve heard some good conspiracies on this forum but this seems to be up there with the best! You honestly believe that the reason he won two comps was because he didn’t put in a general play card to reduce the risk of being cut a small amount?!?! To have any real effect on your handicap you would have to shoot about 20 under your handicap after the calculations have been done.

You do realise I was there? Had he submitted a general play score, he actually would have been cut (just for that round), and I've no idea how many other general play rounds he had that attitude. He hadn't submitted any anyway for quite a while, but had been playing very well. He won the first competition on countback. So, I can categorically say he actually did end up winning the competition as a result of not submitting a general play score.

And, that was his right, so I cannot complain. However, when a player decides whether they choose to register a general play score or not based on the probable outcome, then it is a subtle way of manipulating handicap. There will be players who will submit scores if it is likely it will result in an increase (losing good scores), but choose not to if they are losing bad scores, and a good score will result in a cut.

 

[jim8flog]

A member of a club in St. Andrews, not the R&A, who plays with a member of the R&A

One of the important points is that the R&A are not responsible for the WHS. England golf, Scotland golf etc are. Although I would expect they are kept 'in the loop'.

 

[jamielaing]

You do realise I was there? Had he submitted a general play score, he actually would have been cut (just for that round), and I've no idea how many other general play rounds he had that attitude. He hadn't submitted any anyway for quite a while, but had been playing very well. He won the first competition on countback. So, I can categorically say he actually did end up winning the competition as a result of not submitting a general play score.

And, that was his right, so I cannot complain. However, when a player decides whether they choose to register a general play score or not based on the probable outcome, then it is a subtle way of manipulating handicap. There will be players who will submit scores if it is likely it will result in an increase (losing good scores), but choose not to if they are losing bad scores, and a good score will result in a cut.

Not putting a card in isn't a manipulation. Much like players who chose not to play in a medal in windy conditions etc

 

[jamielaing]

I really disagree with this expectation of putting in general plays all the time. What happened to going out for a knock with your mates, a bit of a laugh and knocking balls away for gimmes.

Every round can't be serious.

GPs are also used daily to manipulate handicaps. Both up or down depending on the motivation of the player.

 

[Deleted member 3432]

I really disagree with this expectation of putting in general plays all the time. What happened to going out for a knock with your mates, a bit of a laugh and knocking balls away for gimmes.

Every round can't be serious.

GPs are also used daily to manipulate handicaps. Both up or down depending on the motivation of the player.

Its up to you to choose whether you want to submit a general play card, despite what the WHS zealots tell us to do.

I can't get my head round people who think those that arn't submitting cards are manipulating their handicaps. The only people who are manipulating hcp's are those that are choosing to do so deliberately, huge difference.

I would just continue to have a knock about with your mates if that is what gives you most enjoyment and save cards for comps.

 

[Backsticks]

I'm thinking some of the logic behind any such change would be based upon a belief that a player is more likely to 'misbehave' in his play and interpretation of rules, and hence his scoring, when playing with his mates and putting in a gp card, than when playing in a formal competition. Unfortunate...as one of the main advantages for me of WHS is that it gets a player to a HI that reflects his 'current' form, and for me it is that that matters in a competitive context.

I would guess you are correct in your guess on the rationale behind it.
But I would think it a good one. It's a somewhat backtrack or middle ground on being able to sustain a handicap without ever playing a controlled competitive round. Its a simple software tweak. I like it.

 

[Swango1980]

Not putting a card in isn't a manipulation. Much like players who chose not to play in a medal in windy conditions etc

I hope you read the bit where I said "as is his right, I have no complaints".

However, if a player elects to put in a score when the odds are it will result in a handicap increase, and elect not to submit a score when there is no chance for a handicap increase (and a possible chance of a reduction), you cannot claim there is zero manipulation. It is no longer down to random chance what rounds go for handicap. It would also be the same as a player only submitting general play scores in terrible weather conditions, but choosing not to in fine weather. It isn't anything that is likely to get them in any official run ins with the Committee, but it might be considered by some against the spirit of the system.

 

[Swango1980]

I really disagree with this expectation of putting in general plays all the time. What happened to going out for a knock with your mates, a bit of a laugh and knocking balls away for gimmes.

Every round can't be serious.

GPs are also used daily to manipulate handicaps. Both up or down depending on the motivation of the player.

Who expects you to submit every score?