Change to whs ?

D-S

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Re scratch and + cappers.
I asked EG
It has been suggested that the handicaps of pre WHS cat 1 players are lower after the WHS transition.
Is there any data to show the actual conversion produced such an effect? Or since WHS have low h'cap players been producing lower differentials?

and the response was
This data is available for clubs to run via WHS reports
I can't find a report that does this as all the reports are based on WHS HIs after the transition and none that I can see contain UHS numbers and as the CDH database has been turned off I am not surprised.
I'd be interested if there is a report though.
 

Springveldt

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What is his Course Handicap from the tees he normally plays.
You can't really equate CONGU exact h'cap with h'cap index as the true h'cap is now course dependant.
Current index is +1.6, playing handicap of +2. Course has a slope of 139.

He was never this low under CONGU and by his own words "no chance I'd ever have got to +2 in the old system, I'm a scratch golfer".
 

wjemather

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Most likely score can effect handicaps as players have to estimat what they would have scored as well as distances (e.g. 5 feet or 5 feet to 20 yards or 20 yards plus), when they decide to pick up etc. This is all is open to interpretation and very easy manipulation both upwards and downwards. Hence the mess that are a lot of USGA handicaps are. If you have played there enough the phrase 'oh just put me down for a x' is very familiar.
This isn't really true. MLS provides a simple and reasonable framework for establishing a hole score for handicapping where a hole has not been completed - 'oh just put me down for a x' is certainly not an option.
 

mikejohnchapman

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I was really referring to the effect on handicaps. See note 2 to 3.3
  1. For players with an established Handicap Index, the most likely score on any hole cannot exceed net double bogey for handicap purposes.
I think I was arguing the opposite! ;)

If I have a tricky 5' downhill breaking put for a par and my PP has holed out for a net par I can pick my ball up and mark a par. Now I'm sure I would have holed it but ...................
 

wjemather

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I can't find a report that does this as all the reports are based on WHS HIs after the transition and none that I can see contain UHS numbers and as the CDH database has been turned off I am not surprised.
I'd be interested if there is a report though.
There was a "Handicap Comparison" report at transition, but it has since been removed. I still have all our reports from transition.
 

D-S

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This isn't really true. MLS provides a simple and reasonable framework for establishing a hole score for handicapping where a hole has not been completed - 'oh just put me down for a x' is certainly not an option.
I wasn’t stating that this is an option under the rules but as I said estimation is open to interpretation and very easy manipulation upwards or downwards as per your example in your last post.
 

wjemather

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I think I was arguing the opposite! ;)

If I have a tricky 5' downhill breaking put for a par and my PP has holed out for a net par I can pick my ball up and mark a par. Now I'm sure I would have holed it but ...................
Important to remember it's "most likely" score, not "virtually certain" score.
 

mikejohnchapman

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Important to remember it's "most likely" score, not "virtually certain" score.
And therein lies the rub. I would be convinced I would hole it and think I am doing the right thing regarding pace of play. My playing partners would never concede the putt in a million years if it were matchplay as they have seen me putt. However, it's my call.

The key point I was trying to make is that we have to stop being precious about an exact number to 1 DP when there are several other less precise factors involved in establishing a handicap index.
 

wjemather

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I wasn’t stating that this is an option under the rules but as I said estimation is open to interpretation and very easy manipulation upwards or downwards as per your example in your last post.
Players know approximate distances so estimation is minimal. There is no interpretation; only reasonable judgement. Also, MLS does not really facilitate downward manipulation (except for higher handicappers) and any attempt at upwards manipulation is countered by the best 8 from 20 (i.e. the score won't be counting).

There are far simpler ways of manipulating one's handicap without recording a stroke more/less on a few holes by judging yourself better/worse than you are, or the difficulty of the shot faced easier/harder than it is.
 

rulefan

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This isn't really true. MLS provides a simple and reasonable framework for establishing a hole score for handicapping where a hole has not been completed - 'oh just put me down for a x' is certainly not an option.
But MLS isn't used in handicapping.
 

D-S

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But MLS isn't used in handicapping.
Well rule 3.3 in the USGA Rules of Handicapping is all about Most Likely Score, it even has diagrams to show that about when to add 2 or 3 shots or 3 or 4 shots to your estimation ‘based on the position of the ball, difficulty of the green and ability of the player’ - quite variable in my view.
It also states ‘there is no limit to the number of MLS scores that can be recorded within a player’s adjusted gross score’.

See my earlier link 3.3 under ‘Scores for Handicap Purposes’.
 

wjemather

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But MLS isn't used in handicapping.
I thought D-S covered this in #77?
Anyway, I'm not sure where Ireland have got to with their trial, but (at the very least, unless something has changed recently, as far as I am aware) MLS remains part of the handicapping system as used in several jurisdictions, including the US, Canada, South Africa and New Zealand.
 

D-S

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I thought D-S covered this in #77?
Anyway, I'm not sure where Ireland have got to with their trial, but (at the very least, unless something has changed recently, as far as I am aware) MLS remains part of the handicapping system as used in several jurisdictions, including the US, Canada, South Africa and New Zealand.
It’s very difficult to include matchplay or 4BB scores in ones handicap record otherwise.
 

jim8flog

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That was the theory with UHS, however for Cat1 players, it never really worked that way (mostly due to the 0.1 buffer being too small), hence the reductions that were generally seen for this group during transition.

I would agree with that comment. Based upon knowledge of quite a few of the old Cat 1 golfers at our club I would see this simply as most of them played at or around there handicaps fairly frequently and to a certain extent we had handicap protectors whose cards were not submitted/recorded if they had a bad round.
 

jim8flog

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Well rule 3.3 in the USGA Rules of Handicapping is all about Most Likely Score, it even has diagrams to show that about when to add 2 or 3 shots or 3 or 4 shots to your estimation ‘based on the position of the ball, difficulty of the green and ability of the player’ - quite variable in my view.
It also states ‘there is no limit to the number of MLS scores that can be recorded within a player’s adjusted gross score’.

See my earlier link 3.3 under ‘Scores for Handicap Purposes’.

This is from the Guidance for GB and I

G3.3/1 Meaning of Most Likely Score (“MLS”) for Handicap Purposes
Whilst not in general use in GB&I, Ireland are trialling its use so clubs and players should be aware of this provision should they play overseas or in Ireland. The full details are taken from Interpretation 3.3/1 (included in the Rules for jurisdictions that use MLS).
 
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rulefan

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Well rule 3.3 in the USGA Rules of Handicapping is all about Most Likely Score, it even has diagrams to show that about when to add 2 or 3 shots or 3 or 4 shots to your estimation ‘based on the position of the ball, difficulty of the green and ability of the player’ - quite variable in my view.
It also states ‘there is no limit to the number of MLS scores that can be recorded within a player’s adjusted gross score’.

See my earlier link 3.3 under ‘Scores for Handicap Purposes’.
3.3 Notes
1. .......
2. For players with an established Handicap Index, the most likely score on any
hole cannot exceed net double bogey for handicap purposes.
3. .....
4. In a Maximum Score format of stroke play, there may be situations where a
player has not reached their net double bogey score before reaching the
maximum score as determined by the Terms of the Competition. In such
cases, the player should record either a most likely score or net double bogey,
whichever is the lower score
(see Rules of Golf, Rule 21.2).
 

D-S

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3.3 Notes
1. .......
2. For players with an established Handicap Index, the most likely score on any
hole cannot exceed net double bogey for handicap purposes.
3. .....
4. In a Maximum Score format of stroke play, there may be situations where a
player has not reached their net double bogey score before reaching the
maximum score as determined by the Terms of the Competition. In such
cases, the player should record either a most likely score or net double bogey,
whichever is the lower score
(see Rules of Golf, Rule 21.2).

Well if you recorded a score higher than nett double bogey (via MLS), it would more than likely be reduced to nett double bogey anyway in your adjusted gross score,this is exactly the same as in a ‘normal’ round.
As stated in the rule you can have an unlimited amount of MLS scores in your adjusted grosss score in any round.
All of this doesn’t mean that MLS is a not key part of Handicapping in the USA and that is why 3.3 explains it and how to implement it so fully in the Rules of Handicapping. It also means that estimated scores can form a greater or lesser part of scores in players recorded rounds.
 

Crazyface

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How about this for a thought.
All golfers that require a competition handicap to play in opens must play in 3 comps at another course. All courses must have a small fee to enter open comp for this purpose. All the comps are drawn and cards submitted.
 
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