Change to whs ?

rulefan

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Last sentence if anything I would argue the reverse is true,
WHS aims to give a measure of current ability; UHS was intended to indicate potential ability.

Unless I have misinterpreted, I have simply paraphrased statements made by the WHS and CONGU.
 
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WHS aims to give a measure of current ability; UHS was intended to indicate potential ability.

Unless I have misinterpreted, I have simply paraphrased statements made by the WHS and CONGU.

Yes, but what I see is the exact opposite. Certainly that appears to be the case in lower handicaps.

Using me as an example my 'current form' is lower than my 'potential ability' ever was..

Surely potential ability means your absolute best?
 

wjemather

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WHS aims to give a measure of current ability; UHS was intended to indicate potential ability.

Unless I have misinterpreted, I have simply paraphrased statements made by the WHS and CONGU.
That was the theory with UHS, however for Cat1 players, it never really worked that way (mostly due to the 0.1 buffer being too small), hence the reductions that were generally seen for this group during transition.
 

Backsticks

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With amittedly no research other a quick look at our clubs hcs, I would estimate that 6 and below reduced by a shot, middle range haven no clear change, and 20+ handicaps would have risen a shot or two now that the bulk of players has a useful number of scores in under the new WHS.
But am sure authorities are analysing and have concrete data. Would be interesting to see it.
 

Vikingman

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Based on our course if I started the season off 13 under CONGU and shot 87 for each of the next 20 rounds (using CSS of 71) I would still be off 13. (71+3(buffer)=74.) 87-13=74

If I started the season off 12.4 index (receive 13 shots for comp golf) after 20 consecutive 87s my index would be 12.9 and I would receive 14 shots in competition golf.
 

D-S

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It is a World system in that all the major elements and calculations produce the same comparable handicap index. This has never been true before. The differences (rounding, cr-par, 9 hole scores) have a trivial effect on the result.

I am surprised you say there are more 0 and plus handicaps. Where has this been reported? WHS aims to give a measure of current ability; UHS was intended to indicate potential ability.
I haven’t seen any report with the number of scratch and plus under WHS vs UHS, but certainly in our scratch Open there are a lot more plus than previously and at the Club we have far more plus handicaps than before.
We held a National Tournament (due to COVID it was mainly just GB&I, there were not European entries as there would normally have been) last year and the ballot was at +1.6 and we had four players off +7, this seems a lot higher than pre WHS. I’d be interested if anyone has the stats on this.
 

Swango1980

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Not for me it isn't it's a nuisance.
It's a pain in medals but a necessary part.
Writing it down then transferring to computer, can't be bothered for social golf..
I guess it depends on what you do socially. If you are a golfer that never keeps a score, and therefore no scorecard during the round at all, then I'd agree it probably seems like an effort to record and submit a score. I know a few people, like my mates dad, who goes out and never keeps his score. Although he'll play the odd comp, he isn't all that competitive, so when he plays socially he just does so to hit a ball around the course. Not interested in his score, or competing with the guys he is playing with. So, I can imagine people like that don't want to have to suddenly record their scores.

Most people I play with like to keep their score, so have a scorecard. They may compete with the guys in their group, loser buys drinks. Although, often one person in the group keeps scores. The others may be only too happy for that player to keep the scores and have a bit of a friendly competition, but may not be that bothered about keeping scores if they had to do so themselves. So, for those types submitting scores might be seen as too much effort.

However, for those that actually do keep scores during social rounds, the only extra effort if typing them into their phone or PSI screen afterwards. It isn't really difficult or time consuming. Even better, you can abandon a physical scorecard altogether and record scores as you go along on your phone on MyEG app. You can add you playing partners, and it automatically fines them and works out their handicaps so you don't need to. You can enter all their scores and it adds up the points and nett scores for you. It even warns you if you or your marker made a mistake on a hole (by entering conflicting numbers). So, for those that are used to entering scores on a physical card, submitting a score electronically can actually end up being quicker overall.
 

Backache

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So, for those that are used to entering scores on a physical card, submitting a score electronically can actually end up being quicker overall.
Much of my social golf is matchplay so it does not involve keeping score.
When I do keep score I do it by pencil on a card. Reading apps outside taking glasses on and off and having fat fingers plus having cards with my phone mean taking phone in and out to score is a complete non starter.
When I have to transcribe digitally for competitions it is a complete pita. Happy to do it for comps but for social golf no way.
 

Springveldt

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Yes, but what I see is the exact opposite. Certainly that appears to be the case in lower handicaps.

Using me as an example my 'current form' is lower than my 'potential ability' ever was..

Surely potential ability means your absolute best?
I've noticed the same at my course. One of my usual PP under the old system was mainly scratch with the odd week here and there at +1 or 1 before coming back to scratch. Since WHS started I don't think he has been higher than +0.8, it's usually in the +1.6 to +1.9 range. Most of the guys that were scratch or better in the old system are now +2 or better in WHS at my course.
 

rulefan

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I've noticed the same at my course. One of my usual PP under the old system was mainly scratch with the odd week here and there at +1 or 1 before coming back to scratch. Since WHS started I don't think he has been higher than +0.8, it's usually in the +1.6 to +1.9 range. Most of the guys that were scratch or better in the old system are now +2 or better in WHS at my course.
What is his Course Handicap from the tees he normally plays.
You can't really equate CONGU exact h'cap with h'cap index as the true h'cap is now course dependant.
 

mikejohnchapman

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Maybe it's for scratch/elite comps where a ballot is used and they feel that too many players are entering with handicaps that suggest that they're better than they are and so are pushing out golfers with handicaps acquired in the heat of a tournament?
But this was always the case. Many players from the US were able to enter top European events with very low handicaps but often failed to challenge for the prizes.

I gather the ballot point has gone down by 2 or 3 shots for top amateur events - al least everyone should now be on a level playing field.

BTW what makes a nonsense of this discussion is that different jurisdictions are using variants such as matchplay scoring. 4BBB and most likely score to calculate HIs as part of the WHS "framework". This being the case who's worried about a few GP scores?
 

D-S

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What is his Course Handicap from the tees he normally plays.
You can't really equate CONGU exact h'cap with h'cap index as the true h'cap is now course dependant.
Surely at that level his Course Handicap is almost always the same as his Handicap Index as Slope rating correctly doesn’t have much effect near 0?
If we had CR- Par as part of the calculation it of course would have a greater difference depending on the course and tees he plays off.
 

rulefan

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BTW what makes a nonsense of this discussion is that different jurisdictions are using variants such as matchplay scoring. 4BBB and most likely score to calculate HIs as part of the WHS "framework". This being the case who's worried about a few GP scores?
The concept of Most Likely Score no longer exists. 3.1b NDB also applies in the US now.
 

rulefan

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I was really referring to the effect on handicaps. See note 2 to 3.3
  1. For players with an established Handicap Index, the most likely score on any hole cannot exceed net double bogey for handicap purposes.
 

rulefan

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Re scratch and + cappers.
I asked EG
It has been suggested that the handicaps of pre WHS cat 1 players are lower after the WHS transition.
Is there any data to show the actual conversion produced such an effect? Or since WHS have low h'cap players been producing lower differentials?

and the response was
This data is available for clubs to run via WHS reports
 

D-S

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I was really referring to the effect on handicaps. See note 2 to 3.3
  1. For players with an established Handicap Index, the most likely score on any hole cannot exceed net double bogey for handicap purposes.
Most likely score can effect handicaps as players have to estimat what they would have scored as well as distances (e.g. 5 feet or 5 feet to 20 yards or 20 yards plus), when they decide to pick up etc. This is all is open to interpretation and very easy manipulation both upwards and downwards. Hence the mess that are a lot of USGA handicaps are. If you have played there enough the phrase 'oh just put me down for a x' is very familiar.
 
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