Change to US style slope system from current CSS

[Old Skier]

Also I have been told that there is something within the software to pick up on someone who is obviously trying to manipulate their handicap up.

Interesting, I've been using it for a number of years and not heard that one before.

 

[Norrin Radd]

Actually the USGA system is based on a rolling average of the best 10 out of your last 20 scores. So it should be quite easy to manipulate a handicap upwards. Also if players want to reduce their handicaps, they will only play on days with the most benign conditions, because there is no equivalent of CSS to adjust for the conditions.

Muldoon will be laughing all the way to Dubai.

 

[delc]

I can honestly say that most of our club members play between 10-20 Qs in a year, it's a shame you don't get that kind of response at your club.

Not great that you feel that you have members who would cheat and manipulate a handicap system.

I'm not sure that we have, but I have been beaten into 2nd place in a board comp by a regular player who had only played in the bare minimum of 3 qualifiers in the previous 12 months! I had played in over 20 in the same period.

 

[MadAdey]

Interesting, I've been using it for a number of years and not heard that one before.

I don't know if it's an old wife's tale, just something someone said when I was questioning how easy it would be to make your handicap go up.

 

[MadAdey]

Actually the USGA system is based on a rolling average of the best 10 out of your last 20 scores. So it should be quite easy to manipulate a handicap upwards. Also if players want to reduce their handicaps, they will only play on days with the most benign conditions, because there is no equivalent of CSS to adjust for the conditions.

But it will take more than 10 rounds, unless your best 10 where the last 10.

If someone wants an artificially low handicap for bragging rights then it is only themself it affects, nobody else.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

I'm not sure that we have, but I have been beaten into 2nd place in a board comp by a regular player who had only played in the bare minimum of 3 qualifiers in the previous 12 months! I had played in over 20 in the same period.

That happens at a lot of places and we've had a player doing the same thing. While the rules are such and ptoviding they meet the competition criteria, not a lot you can do

 

[Old Skier]

That happens at a lot of places and we've had a player doing the same thing. While the rules are such and ptoviding they meet the competition criteria, not a lot you can do

If the comp committee are worried about it they can change the rules of entry.

 

[delc]

But it will take more than 10 rounds, unless your best 10 where the last 10.

If someone wants an artificially low handicap for bragging rights then it is only themself it affects, nobody else.

Every time you play you drop your 20th oldest score and add one new one, whether the respective scores are good or bad. It can make a significant difference if you drop a particularly good score and add a poor one, or vice versa. I believe that USGA are thinking of adding extra weighting to scores made in formal competitions.

 

[Slab]

Every time you play you drop your 20th oldest score and add one new one, whether the respective scores are good or bad. It can make a significant difference if you drop a particularly good score and add a poor one, or vice versa. I believe that USGA are thinking of adding extra weighting to scores made in formal competitions.

I think this overstates it. Even if dropping a good one and adding a 'poor one' then the poor one is not likely to be one of your last 10 best of 20 therefore it'll be disregarded for handicap adjustment at that time

So a difference, yes (as it should) A significant difference, not likely

 

[delc]

I think this overstates it. Even if dropping a good one and adding a 'poor one' then the poor one is not likely to be one of your last 10 best of 20 therefore it'll be disregarded for handicap adjustment at that time

So a difference, yes (as it should) A significant difference, not likely

What do you not understand about the rolling average of the best 10 results (times a factor) out of the last 20? Sure using an average will smooth out any handicap changes, but not totally! One of the criticisms of USGA is that handicaps can reduce or increase quite rapidly under certain circumstances. Also it is possible for your handicap to go up after a better than handicap round, if you have to drop the score from an even better earlier round.

 

[duncan mackie]

What do you not understand about the rolling average of the best 10 results (times a factor) out of the last 20? Sure using an average will smooth out any handicap changes, but not totally! One of the criticisms of USGA is that handicaps can reduce or increase quite rapidly under certain circumstances. Also it is possible for your handicap to go up after a better than handicap round, if you have to drop the score from an even better earlier round.

Slabs post was 100% accurate, as was Madadeys on the subject.

With a rolling average of a selective subset, whilst you will lose any selected score that was 20th ago there is no reason that the new score will form part of the new average (and if it's particularly poor it simply won't).

It follows that substantial imediately change will only result from dropping an extraordinary good score - which was logically skewing you handicap anyway!)

Refreshing your entire 20 will of course have the potential to make a significant change - and it's likely that seniors will have the opportunity to do this more than others - would be interesting!

We will have to see what actually transpires.

 

[duncan mackie]

This is something I don't understand, presumably this doesn't include matchplay rounds, 4BBB play, bounce game rounds. How does this pan out in practice?

Nope - everything counts (USGA). See Upsidedown's informative post.

 

[Slab]

Cheers Duncan (not sure what I've done to upset Del)

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Nope - everything counts (USGA). See Upsidedown's informative post.

Speaking to people in Congu whilst slope will be introduced over the next decade

Don't expect to go the whole hog and have every round count

 

[garyinderry]

How does it work with the us system if I head out late on a Saturday evening and play multiple balls around 6 holes.

What if I decide I don't fancy putting as the greens are hollow tinned or I am just not fussed and would rather chip 10 balls to each hole?

 

[upsidedown]

How does it work with the us system if I head out late on a Saturday evening and play multiple balls around 6 holes.

What if I decide I don't fancy putting as the greens are hollow tinned or I am just not fussed and would rather chip 10 balls to each hole?

That's practice not a "round" :thup:

 

[upsidedown]

What do you not understand about the rolling average of the best 10 results (times a factor) out of the last 20? Sure using an average will smooth out any handicap changes, but not totally! One of the criticisms of USGA is that handicaps can reduce or increase quite rapidly under certain circumstances. Also it is possible for your handicap to go up after a better than handicap round, if you have to drop the score from an even better earlier round.

Remember also your handicap index is for 14 days, so opportunity for your 20 averages to change in that timescale

 

[Slab]

How does it work with the us system if I head out late on a Saturday evening and play multiple balls around 6 holes.

What if I decide I don't fancy putting as the greens are hollow tinned or I am just not fussed and would rather chip 10 balls to each hole?

These aren't rounds of golf though it's just practice using some of the course

I think there is a mechanism for an incomplete round within the slope system (a couple holes missed etc) but I'd need to go and read on it before suggesting what it is


edit: too slow

 

[MadAdey]

Every time you play you drop your 20th oldest score and add one new one, whether the respective scores are good or bad. It can make a significant difference if you drop a particularly good score and add a poor one, or vice versa. I believe that USGA are thinking of adding extra weighting to scores made in formal competitions.

But the chances that dropping 1 score will make that much difference are very slim.
So to par lets your last 20 rounds are like this in order they where played:

3,12,14,9,10,20,9,15,17,8,14,17,12,11,16,11,10,16,16,10.

So that looks like a 9.3 handicap to me. So if this player went out and shot +20 to remove the good round his handicap would change to 10.2.

Is it that much of a change? He would really need to get of 5 scores to really make a difference.

No system is perfect and will always be open to abuse. The USGA system be better at catching the rapidly improving player though.

 

[IanG]

Nope - everything counts (USGA). See Upsidedown's informative post.

So when everything counts, then either

(i) all rounds must be played according to the RoG, (which bounce games right now are generally not, e.g. walking back for a lost ball etc)
(ii) there is a mechanism in place to allow rounds which deviate from the RoG to still be included e.g. for any hole for which the RoG are not followed you simply enter you handicapped gross score - as you would if you didn't complete the round.

Maybe I'm missing something but I don't think this has been explained.