Body Found, now I want answers!!

[Foxholer]

Also saw this link when checking out the LPP's info!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29471094

Question Time apologising fora question linking the death with Immigration/EU Freedom of Movement across borders.

Nina Gross wrote on Twitter: "It is extremely insensitive to use my family's tragedy for political agendas and discussion. This is a time of grief for our family."

She added: "This is a personal tragedy which we want to deal with privately, rather than fearing anyone using it for any political agenda."

 

[Fish]

I think its a very relevant question but I can also understand and sympathise with the Gross family for its timing, but, I don't think it is political points scoring to ask such a question regarding "freedom of movement across EU borders" and whether it should apply to "convicted criminals" when a serious crime may or has been committed by a European visitor!

The prime (deceased) suspect Zalkalns served seven years in prison in his homeland for bludgeoning and stabbing his wife, hardly a misdemeanor and I am unaware of their (Latvian) justice system but a murderer from the UK would most likely be on a life licence for such a crime and as such his movements and actions for the remaining time of his life would or at least should be closely monitored! With the openness of European borders, is it too much to ask that convicted criminals of heinous crimes have to declare their movements out of their country and seek approval of the country they are wishing to visit or indeed move to? I don't think so, but then I'm sure the do-gooders will say they have served their sentence and are now free to attempt to rebuild their life without hurdles, but if they don't and they commit another serious crime, who is to blame, surely its the current system and if so, it has to change.

Why not a points system for those who have convictions for various crimes that could be deemed as that individual being "undesirable" to visit or stay in our country?

Surely the safety and welfare of everyone should be paramount and everyone should be protected from risk and that can only be achieved by the authorities being knowledgeable of serious convicted offenders and their movements!

 

[Billysboots]

Now I want to know how a convicted murderer was not only allowed to enter our country but was also not fully investigated and looked into when a sexual assault charge was brought against him previously

You're not the only one who wants answers. I'd like YOU to provide answers to substantiate your rather sweeping statement that this man wasn't "fully investigated" over an allegation of sexual assault. There are a multitude of reasons why an allegation that an offence has been committed may not result in a prosecution or deportation, but rather than consider the possibilities it's far easier for the narrow minded to be blinded by anti police bias in sections of the media like the BBC, and assume it was the police investigation which was at fault.

So answers please. As you clearly know so much about this particular police investigation, kindly share your wisdom and tell the rest of us where they went wrong. And then enlighten us all and say what you would have done differently.

This is one reply I'm really looking forward to........

 

[Ethan]

I can understand why the Gross family would want answers.

Not so sure any of the rest of you/us have any right to demand them too.

 

[garyinderry]

Having people on registers, watch lists and the like become next to useless once one of these monsters gets the idea into their head. It might help catch the perpetrators sooner but it won't stop them committing the crime.

The talk of shoring up our boarders is just nonsense. We have enough living here already.

 

[Foxholer]

I can understand why the Gross family would want answers.

Not so sure any of the rest of you/us have any right to demand them too.

I'd say to prevent it happening in the future.

Seems there are lists etc that could/should have flagged this though.

 

[Fish]

You're not the only one who wants answers. I'd like YOU to provide answers to substantiate your rather sweeping statement that this man wasn't "fully investigated" over an allegation of sexual assault. There are a multitude of reasons why an allegation that an offence has been committed may not result in a prosecution or deportation, but rather than consider the possibilities it's far easier for the narrow minded to be blinded by anti police bias in sections of the media like the BBC, and assume it was the police investigation which was at fault.

So answers please. As you clearly know so much about this particular police investigation, kindly share your wisdom and tell the rest of us where they went wrong. And then enlighten us all and say what you would have done differently.

This is one reply I'm really looking forward to........

Policeman by any chance, if so, what a knobbish post, if not, still a knobbish post!

I'm entitled to an opinion and that is all it is, I've read and listened to enough reports that have all stated that he was previously accused and arrested of 'drugging and molesting' a 14yr old teenager in 2009, unfortunately the young girl couldn't go through with the court case and it collapsed, but, as he was actually arrested, surely all details of him should have been sought at that time, but they obviously weren't because recent quotes from the Met have stated that they have NOW only just requested all information and details of the murder conviction, so, why weren't they requested in 2009 when he was arrested for a serious allegation of sexual assault on a minor? If they had, the Met wouldn't be asking for them all now and maybe, just maybe they would have known a lot more about him and maybe we could be looking at a different outcome to that which we are now with another 14yr old victim!

 

[Billysboots]

Policeman by any chance, if so, what a knobbish post, if not, still a knobbish post!

I'm entitled to an opinion and that is all it is, I've read and listened to enough reports that have all stated that he was previously accused and arrested of 'drugging and molesting' a 14yr old teenager in 2009, unfortunately the young girl couldn't go through with the court case and it collapsed, but, as he was actually arrested, surely all details of him should have been sought at that time, but they obviously weren't because recent quotes from the Met have stated that they have NOW only just requested all information and details of the murder conviction, so, why weren't they requested in 2009 when he was arrested for a serious allegation of sexual assault on a minor? If they had, the Met wouldn't be asking for them all now and maybe, just maybe they would have known a lot more about him and maybe we could be looking at a different outcome to that which we are now with another 14yr old victim!

A "knobbish" post? Why? Because it questions your observations? What breathtaking arrogance.

I'm not a policeman, not that it's anything to do with you. I wouldn't have the stomach to be continually lambasted and criticised by small minded imbeciles who believe everything they read in the papers. How they put up with it is beyond me. But I know enough about the criminal justice system to know that the mere fact that the police have grounds to arrest someone, even if they are a foreign national, does not automatically mean that a full scale investigation is then launched into every offence they have ever committed in any country where they have ever been resident.

I too have read some of the reports relating to the alleged sexual assault, which quite clearly say that the "victim" withdrew her complaint. You say the court case "collapsed" - how very melodramatic. The reality is, the case never got to court, because there was no statement of complaint. And with an uncooperative victim, the allegation remains just that. An unsubstantiated allegation. And yet despite this, you seem to expect a massive, expensive investigation to swing into action, including detailed examination of offences committed in other countries?

Sorry to disappoint you, but life just isn't that simple. The Sun, or whatever other red top rag you rely upon for your irrefutable evidence that the police screwed up, are never going to tell you the whole story because it doesn't sell copy. The reality is that, because the public want the police in this country to be all things to everyone, they simply haven't got the time to go running around investigating allegations when there isn't even a complaint.

Don't believe everything you read in the papers. If you do, and then go around preaching it as fact, then the likelihood is you are going to make yourself look really rather foolish.

 

[Fish]

A "knobbish" post? Why? Because it questions your observations? What breathtaking arrogance.

I'm not a policeman, not that it's anything to do with you. I wouldn't have the stomach to be continually lambasted and criticised by small minded imbeciles who believe everything they read in the papers. How they put up with it is beyond me. But I know enough about the criminal justice system to know that the mere fact that the police have grounds to arrest someone, even if they are a foreign national, does not automatically mean that a full scale investigation is then launched into every offence they have ever committed in any country where they have ever been resident.

I too have read some of the reports relating to the alleged sexual assault, which quite clearly say that the "victim" withdrew her complaint. You say the court case "collapsed" - how very melodramatic. The reality is, the case never got to court, because there was no statement of complaint. And with an uncooperative victim, the allegation remains just that. An unsubstantiated allegation. And yet despite this, you seem to expect a massive, expensive investigation to swing into action, including detailed examination of offences committed in other countries?

Sorry to disappoint you, but life just isn't that simple. The Sun, or whatever other red top rag you rely upon for your irrefutable evidence that the police screwed up, are never going to tell you the whole story because it doesn't sell copy. The reality is that, because the public want the police in this country to be all things to everyone, they simply haven't got the time to go running around investigating allegations when there isn't even a complaint.

Don't believe everything you read in the papers. If you do, and then go around preaching it as fact, then the likelihood is you are going to make yourself look really rather foolish.

I find the tone of your posts very confrontational and aggressive and full of personal insults based on what, simply another persons opinion, I'd like to say what I really think of you but moderators are always in my shadows and quite simply I don't want a ban at this time so I'll withdraw by saying that, if I was arrested in this country and more so for an allegation of such seriousness on a minor, all my past would be definitely looked into, why should that not be any different because the accused was a European visitor? Were not talking about a theft or a common assault, were talking about drugging and sexually assaulting a 14yr old, seems ironic that we now have similarities but this time the young girl doesn't have the choice to go ahead with the complaint, because it looks like he killed her this time!!

Also, I don't buy papers and especially don't read "red tops", I quoted the statements given by the Met in both the Telegraph and Independent, 2 papers I tend to trust, especially when they quote senior officers within the Met.

Even though I'm the OP, I'll either leave you to having the last word, as you come across that type of person and I'll bow out because I really can't stand people like you..

 

[Billysboots]

I'll withdraw by saying that, if I was arrested in this country and more so for an allegation of such seriousness on a minor, all my past would be definitely looked into

No, it wouldn't. There is a whole world of difference between being arrested on SUSPICION of having committed an offence, and then being investigated and charged with that offence. Read your papers again - the "victim" withdrew her complaint, and if that complaint was withdrawn early enough, very little investigation would have been done.

In this case, by the way, we're talking about the alleged drugging and sexual assault of a 14 year old girl. As harsh as it sounds, the fact that this man was never charged and convicted of the offence means it remains an allegation, nothing more. If true it is a repugnant crime, but who are any of us to say it's true?

The starting point for any investigation is very likely to be determining the actual nature of the allegation. Background enquiries relating to any suspect come later on. If the investigation is such that no complaint is ultimately made then, whilst routine checks of a suspect's background in this country will have been carried out very early on, no overseas checks will be completed.

That is the stark reality. The simple fact of the matter is, once a complaint is withdrawn then, unless there is very good reason, the investigation ceases.

As for me making personal insults, I'd ask you to kindly point out where I have done any such thing. I chose my words very carefully, and whilst I made some generic comments they can only be construed as personal if you choose to interpret them in that way. My comments, with respect, were far less direct than your opening salvo, in which you referred to my post in a very mature way as "knobbish".

And yet I won't go whining to the moderators about it.......

 

[SocketRocket]

The ploy on this Forum of insulting people by suggesting they read a particular News Paper has become so infantile it is pathetic. At first it was just a bit silly, now it has become the standard way of putting people down that have a different view to you rather than engage in debate. There is also a trend towards personal ridicule as a means to discredit a viewpoint some disagree with.

Is it beyond many educated people to debate a subject without redress to insult? just because someone has a different view, no matter how it may oppose your own personal opinion can members please resist these methods.

If this post is indicative of my Newspaper preferences then I will say now that it is 'The Malvern Gazette' and 'Telegraph' which seems to put me in the 'Golfing, Brigadier General Hill Walker' category.

 

[Billysboots]

With respect, I made generic comments not personal insults. And with regard to newspapers, it is certain elements of the press who sensationalise this sort of story, and the OP seems to have been influenced by such reporting. My reference to them was deliberate and for that reason.

Sorry if you view my debating style as infantile.

 

[SocketRocket]

With respect, I made generic comments not personal insults. And with regard to newspapers, it is certain elements of the press who sensationalise this sort of story, and the OP seems to have been influenced by such reporting. My reference to them was deliberate and for that reason.

Sorry if you view my debating style as infantile.

I doubt if you have any evidence to which News Paper the Gentleman reads so I can only extrapolate that you are using the remark as an insult.

I also suspect that you are not really sorry.

 

[Billysboots]

It was a turn of phrase, not an actual apology. Sorry.

(Oops, there I go again.......)

 

[User20205]

It was a turn of phrase, not an actual apology. Sorry.

(Oops, there I go again.......)

Without getting sucked into the 'which paper do I read & what does it say about me' nonsense. Do you think that a fella, who has been convicted of a serious crime & accused of another, should be on the radar of the authorities at the very least? And also subject to some kind of restriction?

 

[Billysboots]

Absolutely he should have been on the radar. But you're talking ideal world scenarios. As recently as Soham UK police forces were very poor at sharing information, and we're not even talking about two UK forces here, but the involvement of authorities in another country. And in the absence of a police charge for an offence the police themselves are powerless to place any restrictions on an individual.

With regard to newspapers, as I say I am not a policeman. But I do work very closely with the police on occasion and more than once have seen cases I have been involved with wildly misreported so as to add excitement to the story. My knowledge of how the police work is also such that I recognise when various sections of the press and media are making mischief and whipping up anti police feeling to meet whatever agenda they are working towards.

Consequently I can identify when someone's criticism of the police tends to stem more from what they read in the papers than it does from their personal experience. And as certain newspapers are more vocal than others in their condemnation of police officers it often follows that those who trot out the same criticisms as certain papers are more likely to read those publications.

 

[JamPal]

The ploy on this Forum of insulting people by suggesting they read a particular News Paper has become so infantile it is pathetic. At first it was just a bit silly, now it has become the standard way of putting people down that have a different view to you rather than engage in debate. There is also a trend towards personal ridicule as a means to discredit a viewpoint some disagree with.

People sometimes sound as though they are regurgitating the lies and nonsense made up in the press. With some people this is a fair call.

Is it beyond many educated people to debate a subject without redress to insult? just because someone has a different view, no matter how it may oppose your own personal opinion can members please resist these methods.

But some people's views are demonstrably stupid. Such as those views expressed by readers of the Express and the Mail, views founded on lies and bigotry ARE stupid.

If this post is indicative of my Newspaper preferences then I will say now that it is 'The Malvern Gazette' and 'Telegraph' which seems to put me in the 'Golfing, Brigadier General Hill Walker' category.

lol