When is a ball found?

[backwoodsman]

Given that SILH has confirmed that the balls were in fact suitably marked, then player was fine to continue. Although l think the player was being a bit casual in hitting what he thought was his provisional without checking that ir was. I never hit a ball withour checking it's mine (ok, unless it lands in full full & is never out of sight, in which case l may not be quite as attentive)

 

[backwoodsman]

Wrong. The only person that can identify his/her own ball is the player themselves. If they say it's their ball then it is. Also, if they say it's not, then it's not. So going back to the OP, all is ok. He played his original ball with his second shot, even if he didn't know it was, but identified it as his original ball when he got to it, so all is ok.

Dont agree. Eg player hits an unmarked no.1 Pro V1 into the light rough. Everyone sees, more or less, where it lands. On walking to the spot, three unmarked no.1 Pro V1s are found in close proximity. Without some degree of certainty (ie some means of knowing) then player can't claim ball A is theirs and balls B & C are not.

It is the responsibility of the player to play the proper ball (rule 6/5) - which is not the same as granting a player the right to make an unverifiable claim that a ball (any ball) is the proper ball

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Given that SILH has confirmed that the balls were in fact suitably marked, then player was fine to continue. Although l think the player was being a bit casual in hitting what he thought was his provisional without checking that ir was. I never hit a ball withour checking it's mine (ok, unless it lands in full full & is never out of sight, in which case l may not be quite as attentive)

...and his experience rather makes the case for making a mark on your ball...and when putting a provisional into play telling your playing companions the ball you are playing.

But question remains. Under the Rules - when is a ball deemed found?

When it is identified by the player as being his ball?

Now my buddy couldn't do that until he got to where he had hit what he thought was his provisional - because until then he couldn't be sure what ball he had in fact hit. Indeed after he discovered his provisional it was most likely that he had hit neither his original nor his provisional. We didn't know until we had got to it. And that was after 5mins.

 

[backwoodsman]

...and his experience rather makes the case for making a mark on your ball...and when putting a provisional into play telling your playing companions the ball you are playing.

But question remains. Under the Rules - when is a ball deemed found?

When it is identified by the player as being his ball?

Now my buddy couldn't do that until he got to where he had hit what he thought was his provisional - because until then he couldn't be sure what ball he had in fact hit. Indeed after he discovered his provisional it was most likely that he had hit neither his original nor his provisional. We didn't know until we had got to it. And that was after 5mins.

In effect, you are looking at this the wrong way. The rules don't define a "found ball" - they define a lost ball. The first criterion of which is a ball " ...not found or identified ... within 5 minutes" (Note the "or" in that bit - it does not say found and identified.) In your scenario, the ball was found - and played, albeit unwittingly. It was still found nonetheless and therefore it was not a lost ball, and therefore still in play.

At least, thats my take on it.

 

[rulie]

The five minute limit is for searching. See Decision 27/5.5

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

In effect, you are looking at this the wrong way. The rules don't define a "found ball" - they define a lost ball. The first criterion of which is a ball " ...not found or identified ... within 5 minutes" (Note the "or" in that bit - it does not say found and identified.) In your scenario, the ball was found - and played, albeit unwittingly. It was still found nonetheless and therefore it was not a lost ball, and therefore still in play.

At least, thats my take on it.

Getting there...not 100% convinced though. How does he know he has found his ball? He was essentially just guessing it was his ball. But I myself just guess that by not positively identifying his ball he's simply accepting the risk that it might not be his. So he was in fact just lucky. The fact that he thought it was his provisional is irrelevant.

And we all do this. We hit our ball onto the green and know we've hit it close. We walk up and tap in. Unless we stop and positively identify the ball, we are in fact taking a risk that it isn't - though in that scenario the risk that it isn't your ball is probably less than 0.0001% (would require a very strange combination of circumstances for your ball to be replaced by another without you spotting )

 

[Colin L]

Getting there...not 100% convinced though. How does he know he has found his ball? He was essentially just guessing it was his ball. But I myself just guess that by not positively identifying his ball he's simply accepting the risk that it might not be his. So he was in fact just lucky. The fact that he thought it was his provisional is irrelevant.

And we all do this. We hit our ball onto the green and know we've hit it close. We walk up and tap in. Unless we stop and positively identify the ball, we are in fact taking a risk that it isn't - though in that scenario the risk that it isn't your ball is probably less than 0.0001% (would require a very strange combination of circumstances for your ball to be replaced by another without you spotting )

When you play a ball, its status is one of these three:
a) the ball in play;
b) the ball provisionally in play;
or
c) a stray ball.

The status of the ball does not depend on what you think it is. Thinking your ball in play (the original in this case) is the ball provisionally in play does not change its status. It's no different from thinking a stray ball is your ball in play: clearly you think it's the correct ball but that doesn't change it from being a wrong ball.

 

[backwoodsman]

Getting there...not 100% convinced though. How does he know he has found his ball? He was essentially just guessing it was his ball. But I myself just guess that by not positively identifying his ball he's simply accepting the risk that it might not be his. So he was in fact just lucky. The fact that he thought it was his provisional is irrelevant.

And we all do this. We hit our ball onto the green and know we've hit it close. We walk up and tap in. Unless we stop and positively identify the ball, we are in fact taking a risk that it isn't - though in that scenario the risk that it isn't your ball is probably less than 0.0001% (would require a very strange combination of circumstances for your ball to be replaced by another without you spotting "

I think you're over complicating it. He played ball A off the tee. Wasn't sure where it went so played provisional ball B. Had a casual look in the woods then went and found a ball and hit it. It is fact that a ball had been found and it is fact that it was ball A. That it wasn't identified as ball A at the time, doesnt alter the fact that it was ball A and that it had been found.

Edit: effectively beaten to it by Colin

 

[atticusfinch]

I think the overly wordy OP is a bit confusing..

Overly wordy posts is a universal phenomenon in golf sites. For some reason posters feel they must paint an elaborate picture of the scene when what matters are only a few facts to get to the underlying rule issue.

 

[Crazyface]

Dont agree. Eg player hits an unmarked no.1 Pro V1 into the light rough. Everyone sees, more or less, where it lands. On walking to the spot, three unmarked no.1 Pro V1s are found in close proximity. Without some degree of certainty (ie some means of knowing) then player can't claim ball A is theirs and balls B & C are not.

It is the responsibility of the player to play the proper ball (rule 6/5) - which is not the same as granting a player the right to make an unverifiable claim that a ball (any ball) is the proper ball

But the ONLY person who can identify his ball is the player themselves. If they say it's their ball (or not), then that's what it is. I got this from a rules ref who had to make a ruling on a situation where a ball was burried in deep grass. In a match play situation, the player who's ball in question was burried said it was not his despite his opponent claiming that the markings on the ball indicated without any doubt that the ball was his opponents. The ref went with the plays who's ball was burried. The player walked back to the tee and striped his next one 300 yards down the middle.

So that's that.

 

[drdel]

Failed to properly identify the ball. The basics are that a player should mark his ball in order to be able to know for certain he/she is playing the right ball. I don't believe the balls could be identical. Consequently the player could not categorically state he had not played a wrong ball before taking the shot.

 

[Colin L]

Failed to properly identify the ball. The basics are that a player should mark his ball in order to be able to know for certain he/she is playing the right ball. I don't believe the balls could be identical. Consequently the player could not categorically state he had not played a wrong ball before taking the shot.

I expect predictive text struck again and you meant I don't believe the balls could be identified]

I'm not with you. The OP clarified that there was no doubt that the player had played his original ball:

There was no doubt at all that he hit his original - though not knowing he had until he got to it after hitting it the second time.

Anyway I hope the question has now been answered - more than once!

But finally (on my part at least), an off-topic question for SwingsitlikeHogan:
Do you?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Sometimes I do - and sometimes I don't

Please note that all along I have said that I pretty much 100% knew the answer to the question - but that there was just one little rather esoteric almost philosophical question in my mind viz. Have you found your ball when you don't know you have found it? I have the answer.