When is a ball found?

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

May be a daft and obvious one this - but just checking as it was curious

A playing companion pulls his tee shot left 150yds straight into a large copse of very mature and dense copse woodland - went thundering in a good 20ft up in the air. Not good. I was thinking 'just put a new ball into play - you don't want to find that as your options are not good'. Anyway - he goes ahead and plays a provisional and hits it well - down the right just into the first cut.

As we walk from the tee again I'm saying to him 'I'm not sure that you want to find that' but he insists we have a quick and cursory look - which we do - but to no avail. He then wanders across the fairway to where his provisional lies - saying 'I'll just declare that one lost' - to which I give the corrective that he can't - but no matter - we're not looking for his original ball.

He cracks his provisional way down towards the green - excellent shot - and we wander on. Moments latern 30yds further down in the first cut he exclaims - 'Found my provisional!' What did he hit? 'well it was the same make as my provisional but also as my original'. Anyway we head off to find the ball that he had hit as his provisional to discover it was his original ball. Somehow it had rebounded out of the dense wood to the other side of the fairway

What to do he asks? My advice was that as he could not declare his ball lost, and because he hit his second shot within 5mins of us starting to look for his original ball - that there are no issues. He played his original ball - that he didn't know he was playing his original ball did not matter.

Now I might be OK so far. I might not be. But if I am, the question then becomes rather esoteric. He did not know he had found his ball until he got to it way down the fairway - and well outside the 5mins allowed to find a ball.

So did he actually find his ball in time?

I think he's OK - but just checking.

 

[backwoodsman]

I suppose the first question to ask is what markings were on each ball in order for him to be able to identify which was his original and which the provisional.

Given that he had played "ball A" thinking it to be the provisional, only to later believe it the original, and then found "ball B" and now believed this to be the provisional, it seems the markings were not at all clear enough for him to be sure of either.

Unless it had distinctive markings, "Ball A" could easily have been a stray ball rather than the original. Without some certainty, l don't think he could claim it as the original.

 

[guest100718]

I suppose the first question to ask is what markings were on each ball in order for him to be able to identify which was his original and which the provisional.

Given that he had played "ball A" thinking it to be the provisional, only to later believe it the original, and then found "ball B" and now believed this to be the provisional, it seems the markings were not at all clear enough for him to be sure of either.

Unless it had distinctive markings, "Ball A" could easily have been a stray ball rather than the original. Without some certainty, l don't think he could claim it as the original.

Yes he doesnt sound like he is sure of which ball was which...

 

[Crazyface]

I suppose the first question to ask is what markings were on each ball in order for him to be able to identify which was his original and which the provisional.

Given that he had played "ball A" thinking it to be the provisional, only to later believe it the original, and then found "ball B" and now believed this to be the provisional, it seems the markings were not at all clear enough for him to be sure of either.

Unless it had distinctive markings, "Ball A" could easily have been a stray ball rather than the original. Without some certainty, l don't think he could claim it as the original.

Wrong. The only person that can identify his/her own ball is the player themselves. If they say it's their ball then it is. Also, if they say it's not, then it's not. So going back to the OP, all is ok. He played his original ball with his second shot, even if he didn't know it was, but identified it as his original ball when he got to it, so all is ok.

 

[Colin L]

An original is the ball in play until 5 minutes of searching are up or the provisional is played from where the original was likely to be or nearer the hole. Provided that the ball played in this instance actually was the original, he continues play with it regardless of his having been a bit muddled.

The question about identifying each ball is pertinent. He does not seem to have much certainty as to which is which! He now has both balls and so as a referee I would be inclined to ask him to show me how he knew the original from the provisional and if he were unable to distinguish between the two balls, I'd be inclined to apply Decision 27/11 and rule that he had to deem the ball he played as the provisional. As a fellow competitor you might suggest that he holes out with both balls under Rule 3-3

 

[guest100718]

I think the overly wordy OP is a bit confusing..


As long as he could identify both balls correctly then I would be happy to play on without penalty as it look like he 'found' his original within 5 mins.

 

[CliveW]

May be a daft and obvious one this - but just checking as it was curious

A playing companion pulls his tee shot left 150yds straight into a large copse of very mature and dense copse woodland - went thundering in a good 20ft up in the air. Not good. I was thinking 'just put a new ball into play - you don't want to find that as your options are not good'. Anyway - he goes ahead and plays a provisional and hits it well - down the right just into the first cut.

As we walk from the tee again I'm saying to him 'I'm not sure that you want to find that' but he insists we have a quick and cursory look - which we do - but to no avail. He then wanders across the fairway to where his provisional lies - saying 'I'll just declare that one lost' - to which I give the corrective that he can't - but no matter - we're not looking for his original ball.

He cracks his provisional way down towards the green - excellent shot - and we wander on. Moments latern 30yds further down in the first cut he exclaims - 'Found my provisional!' What did he hit? 'well it was the same make as my provisional but also as my original'. Anyway we head off to find the ball that he had hit as his provisional to discover it was his original ball. Somehow it had rebounded out of the dense wood to the other side of the fairway

What to do he asks? My advice was that as he could not declare his ball lost, and because he hit his second shot within 5mins of us starting to look for his original ball - that there are no issues. He played his original ball - that he didn't know he was playing his original ball did not matter.

Now I might be OK so far. I might not be. But if I am, the question then becomes rather esoteric. He did not know he had found his ball until he got to it way down the fairway - and well outside the 5mins allowed to find a ball.

So did he actually find his ball in time?

I think he's OK - but just checking.

You say in your third paragraph that you "walk from the tee again". How far from the tee did you walk the first time, and how far did your playing partner walk before returning to the tee to play his provisional?

 

[Colin L]

I read that to mean "again I am saying to him...."

 

[chrisd]

I think the overly wordy OP is a bit confusing..


As long as he could identify both balls correctly then I would be happy to play on without penalty as it look like he 'found' his original within 5 mins.

Id say the same, and add that his original was pulled only about 150 yards and the provisional apparently was cracked way down the fairway so it much more likely that the ball found first would be his original ball and, for me, that adds weight to his claim that he hit his original ball

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Yes he doesnt sound like he is sure of which ball was which...

Both balls were marked. He marks his ball in play with one spot and a provisional with two. If he has to play on with his two spot provisional and on another hole has to play another provisional he plays a one spot for his provisional.

He did not take to the time to fully check his ball - the spot was hidden as the ball lay.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I read that to mean "again I am saying to him...."

correct

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

There was no doubt at all that he hit his original - though not knowing he had until he got to it after hitting it the second time.

My only slight niggle of doubt - or indeed slightly playful question - was whether you can find a ball without knowing you've found it

 

[guest100718]

Both balls were marked. He marks his ball in play with one spot and a provisional with two. If he has to play on with his two spot provisional and on another hole has to play another provisional he plays a one spot for his provisional.

He did not take to the time to fully check his ball - the spot was hidden as the ball lay.

Er read my 2nd post.....

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Er read my 2nd post.....

Yes I know - that is exactly how I saw it. I was just musing whether, under the rules, you can find a ball without knowing you had found it. I was thinking that you had to positively identify a ball as your own to have found it. My buddy didn't until after 5mins were passed.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

As an aside, if someone starts a search and after 2 minutes gives up and states they are no longer looking and will play the provisional, does the clock continue to 5 minutes or is that it, ie if when walking out of the rough he finds his ball, under the original 5 minutes, can they play it or are they too late as they've stated the search is over.

 

[guest100718]

As an aside, if someone starts a search and after 2 minutes gives up and states they are no longer looking and will play the provisional, does the clock continue to 5 minutes or is that it, ie if when walking out of the rough he finds his ball, under the original 5 minutes, can they play it or are they too late as they've stated the search is over.

yes you get the full 5 mins.

 

[Slab]

Yes I know - that is exactly how I saw it. I was just musing whether, under the rules, you can find a ball without knowing you had found it. I was thinking that you had to positively identify a ball as your own to have found it. My buddy didn't until after 5mins were passed.

If a 4-ball tees off on blind tee shot and long hitting Player A strokes it down the middle but he has to help one or two FC's look for their balls it could easily be over 5 minutes before Player A gets over the brow to 'find' his ball and positively identify it even if he saw 'a' ball further down

You couldn't suggest player A's ball was lost

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

If a 4-ball tees off on blind tee shot and long hitting Player A strokes it down the middle but he has to help one or two FC's look for their balls it could easily be over 5 minutes before Player A gets over the brow to 'find' his ball and positively identify it even if he saw 'a' ball further down

You couldn't suggest player A's ball was lost

But he wouldn't have played another shot before he 'found' it. My buddy played a second shot before he 'found' it.

So yes I know - I did say it was a daft question...I was just musing as our rules can be somewhat curious at times.

 

[rulie]

In reality there are only three balls that it could be -
- his original
- his provisional
- a wrong ball.

He played his original.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

In reality there are only three balls that it could be -
- his original
- his provisional
- a wrong ball.

He played his original.

Yes he did. My question boils down to 'when is a player's ball deemed found?'