BLM protests/ Riots.

[Old Skier]

But the stats could be lopsided if you aren't taking the same sample size.

Agreed, tough decision. (FWIW I was mugged and stabbed by a group that happened to be black last year). But I think it's really key to stay objective in this current climate.

Hope you have recovered with no lasting affected. You will have, inadvertently added to the stats

 

[Blue in Munich]

Really? Even though blacks are 25 times more likely to be stopped and searched than whites, according to the government's own figures?

Have you got a link to that?

 

[Billysboots]

Really? Even though blacks are 25 times more likely to be stopped and searched than whites, according to the government's own figures?

Please don’t get me started.

Having been a cop for nearly 29 years I can say, hand on heart, I have never seen any racism. Not towards a member of the public, nor any serving officer.

I have asked any number of BAME friends and colleagues whether they have witnessed or been victim of any racism. Same answer. Not one has said they have.

Obviously I can only speak as I find, but the force in which I serve does not seem to have an issue with racism, which kind of throws the accusation of institutional racism under a number 49 bus.

 

[rudebhoy]

Stop and search has been reduced by two thirds since 2011. In London they have fallen from 800,000 in 2008/2009 to 130,000 in 2017/2018. It is more likely than ever to result in an arrest though, 9% resulted in arrest in 2008/9 but 17% in 2017/2018. A third of stop and searches result in positive outcomes so it looks as if they are not really abused.

Black people are four times more likely to be stopped and searched than white people, I dont know where you get twenty five more times from.

https://metro.co.uk/2019/05/05/black-people-40-times-likely-stopped-searched-9414513/

Black people in England and Wales are 40 times more likely than white people to be stopped and searched by police, research has suggested. The figures came after home secretary Sajid Javid recently gave officers more power to search people under a ‘section 60’ order. If officers have ‘reasonable suspicion’ to suspect a person’s links with violent crime, the order allows them to search people in a specific area. But an analysis on 2018 figures shows black people were 40 times more likely to be stopped, compared with 14 in 2017.

Read more: https://metro.co.uk/2019/05/05/black-people-40-times-likely-stopped-searched-9414513/?ito=cbshare
Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MetroUK/


The figures published on gov.uk suggest the ratio is 9.5 to 1

https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures...e-and-the-law/policing/stop-and-search/latest


Either way, it's pretty grim.

 

[Billysboots]

https://metro.co.uk/2019/05/05/black-people-40-times-likely-stopped-searched-9414513/

Black people in England and Wales are 40 times more likely than white people to be stopped and searched by police, research has suggested. The figures came after home secretary Sajid Javid recently gave officers more power to search people under a ‘section 60’ order. If officers have ‘reasonable suspicion’ to suspect a person’s links with violent crime, the order allows them to search people in a specific area. But an analysis on 2018 figures shows black people were 40 times more likely to be stopped, compared with 14 in 2017.

But if a S60 is authorised in an area where the population is primarily BAME, then it must follow that the majority searched will be BAME.

It’s hardly representative, is it?

 

[Blue in Munich]

https://metro.co.uk/2019/05/05/black-people-40-times-likely-stopped-searched-9414513/

Black people in England and Wales are 40 times more likely than white people to be stopped and searched by police, research has suggested. The figures came after home secretary Sajid Javid recently gave officers more power to search people under a ‘section 60’ order. If officers have ‘reasonable suspicion’ to suspect a person’s links with violent crime, the order allows them to search people in a specific area. But an analysis on 2018 figures shows black people were 40 times more likely to be stopped, compared with 14 in 2017.

Read more: https://metro.co.uk/2019/05/05/black-people-40-times-likely-stopped-searched-9414513/?ito=cbshare
Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MetroUK/


The figures published on gov.uk suggest the ratio is 9.5 to 1

https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures...e-and-the-law/policing/stop-and-search/latest


Either way, it's pretty grim.

Yet Stop.Watch has significantly different figures;

http://www.stop-watch.org/your-area/area/metropolitan

So who do we believe?

 

[rudebhoy]

Please don’t get me started.

Having been a cop for nearly 29 years I can say, hand on heart, I have never seen any racism. Not towards a member of the public, nor any serving officer.

I have asked any number of BAME friends and colleagues whether they have witnessed or been victim of any racism. Same answer. Not one has said they have.

Obviously I can only speak as I find, but the force in which I serve does not seem to have an issue with racism, which kind of throws the accusation of institutional racism under a number 49 bus.

what about this former officer?

https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...lly-racist-racism-black-officer-a9001176.html

"In my decade of service, I saw entrenched prejudice, open racism and discrimination, but also the police’s lackadaisical response to race equality. In my 11 years on the force, I saw no real intention to stamp out racism and change the culture for the better, but only to suppress it. This is why public statements like those of Dick baffle me, because they are untrue and help no one."

Pretty damning stuff.

There have been a number of very high profile cases near me where BAME officers have been forced out of their jobs and have successfully sued the local force for racist behaviour.

 

[SocketRocket]

Large parts of Southwark and Tower hamlets (where I live) Tottenham, Enfield, Edmonton, etc... Can you honestly not see the basic disadvantages? Do you think a kid growing up in one of these areas has as much chance as succeeding as a child from Surrey?

S+S is institutionally racist. Yes black on black crime is too high, but to use a persons skin colour as a basis for a search is inherently racist. I know a fair few people that do class A drugs, I haven't seen a single one get more than a slap on the wrists. Would that happen if they were black? I'm not convinced.

Are there only black people living in those areas and if the housing is sub standard then that's something to be put on the lists of greviences, are these areas really ghettos.
Kids in those areas get the same opportunities for education, more children from all backgrounds get the chance to go to university if they want it. I'm not trying to compare kids in tower hamlets with a privileged kid going to public school but the average white kid and many of those live in similar circumstances. If people want social change then get organised in the political spheres where they can encourage change, make their wishes clear, are they protesting about Police brutality in the USA or racial injustice for black people in the UK.

All this will blow over the same way as previous protests have unless some clarity of objectives are laid down so they are obvious and open to reasonable scrutiny. Taking a knee and discarding statues will do nothing of any use.

 

[rudebhoy]

Yet Stop.Watch has significantly different figures;

http://www.stop-watch.org/your-area/area/metropolitan

So who do we believe?

The government's own figures (for which I provided a link) state that 4 whites per 1000 were subject to S&S, while the figure for blacks was 38/1000.

 

[Billysboots]

what about this former officer?

https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...lly-racist-racism-black-officer-a9001176.html

"In my decade of service, I saw entrenched prejudice, open racism and discrimination, but also the police’s lackadaisical response to race equality. In my 11 years on the force, I saw no real intention to stamp out racism and change the culture for the better, but only to suppress it. This is why public statements like those of Dick baffle me, because they are untrue and help no one."

Pretty damning stuff.

There have been a number of very high profile cases near me where BAME officers have been forced out of their jobs and have successfully sued the local force for racist behaviour.

As I say, I speak as I find. There will always be others with contrary views.

 

[SocketRocket]

https://metro.co.uk/2019/05/05/black-people-40-times-likely-stopped-searched-9414513/

Black people in England and Wales are 40 times more likely than white people to be stopped and searched by police, research has suggested. The figures came after home secretary Sajid Javid recently gave officers more power to search people under a ‘section 60’ order. If officers have ‘reasonable suspicion’ to suspect a person’s links with violent crime, the order allows them to search people in a specific area. But an analysis on 2018 figures shows black people were 40 times more likely to be stopped, compared with 14 in 2017.

Read more: https://metro.co.uk/2019/05/05/black-people-40-times-likely-stopped-searched-9414513/?ito=cbshare
Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MetroUK/


The figures published on gov.uk suggest the ratio is 9.5 to 1

https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures...e-and-the-law/policing/stop-and-search/latest


Either way, it's pretty grim.

Heres where I got my numbers:

https://fullfact.org/crime/stops-and-searches-are-becoming-less-common

https://fullfact.org/crime/stops-and-searches-are-becoming-less-common

 

[Blue in Munich]

The government's own figures (for which I provided a link) state that 4 whites per 1000 were subject to S&S, while the figure for blacks was 38/1000.

And when you take the Met figures out of that, which have a rate of 5 to 1, that means the rest of the country has to have a rate of about 20 to 1 to balance the facts so something doesn't seem to add up somewhere.

 

[rudebhoy]

Heres where I got my numbers:

https://fullfact.org/crime/stops-and-searches-are-becoming-less-common
View attachment 31085
https://fullfact.org/crime/stops-and-searches-are-becoming-less-common
View attachment 31084

So, putting aside the fact your data is 4 years out of date, why are you saying its 4:1 when your chart says 6.5:1 for the latest available year?

 

[SocketRocket]

So, putting aside the fact your data is 4 years out of date, why are you saying its 4:1 when your chart says 6.5:1 for the latest available year?

Well it's not 40 to one is it. I must have used the Met numbers.

 

[rudebhoy]

Well it's not 40 to one is it. I must have used the Met numbers.

I gave you 2 sources, both published in the last year, one said 40/1, the other (official govt figures) said 9.5/1.

You gave one source (4 years old) which said 6.5/1 and claimed the figure was 4/1.

You've got a worrying agenda here.

 

[hovis]

Targeted policing due to the stats unfortunately, perhaps they should stop S&S and see what happens. Difficulty decision for some poor bugger to make.

At the end of the 90`s They did stop the stop and search of black people in Birmingham due to local pressure. Stabbings of black on black went through the roof and the public went Nutts and demanded the police did something!!!

 

[Grant85]

As a direct consequence no. As far as I’m aware they haven’t killed someone.

That doesn’t in anyway give them a free pass to commit as many crimes as they like (as long as not murder) and get a free pass.
the consequences of the looting could easily result in non direct deaths In both the short and long term.

I wouldn’t be surprised if some shopkeepers in the poorest areas have little to no insurance. The results could be but not limited to, suicide (short term), hunger, or a total relapse back into the stereotypical life that is often painted for the poorest in America (crime) for which the stats showed death is a common outcome (long term) for those that live that lifestyle.

I honestly would have supported some sort of activism against police property. Not violence to officers. but destroying private property simply sets things further back.

So who polices them?

The guys who watched while their colleague strangled a black man to death?
The division who threatened to resign when 2 colleagues were charged with assault following pushing an elderly gentleman to the ground?
The dozens of other 'police' who sprayed pepper spray into the faces of peaceful protesters?
The cops who fired rubber bullets at a news crew?

The problem is that the police have to be beyond reproach, and when they so clearly aren't, there are no such thing as a 'crime' any more.

 

[Papas1982]

So who polices them?

The guys who watched while their colleague strangled a black man to death?
The division who threatened to resign when 2 colleagues were charged with assault following pushing an elderly gentleman to the ground?
The dozens of other 'police' who sprayed pepper spray into the faces of peaceful protesters?
The cops who fired rubber bullets at a news crew?

The problem is that the police have to be beyond reproach, and when they so clearly aren't, there are no such thing as a 'crime' any more.

im not defending the police that were guilty in the slightest. But the point I replied to was simply that allowing the rioters (not protesters) t- do whatever solves absolutely nothing.

Police found guilty need to be dealt with. As do the scum burning, stealing and assaulting the public.

 

[Fade and Die]

It could well be, but until you S+S equal numbers of both skin colours you will never know...

That would be a waste of resources, The majority of violent crime in London appears to be young black kids under 21 killing young black kids under 21. And you get told that this is because they are in poverty because they are discriminated against. Is it really only black people in poverty? because last time I walked through parts of Tower Hamlets I see many Asian people also in poverty and dont get me started about the supposed white privileged people living in places like Grays, Tilbury and Purfleet!

 

[Grant85]

im not defending the police that were guilty in the slightest. But the point I replied to was simply that allowing the rioters (not protesters) t- do whatever solves absolutely nothing.

Police found guilty need to be dealt with. As do the scum burning, stealing and assaulting the public.

Other issue is Police are only being challenged / arrested for things there is video evidence of. As far as I'm aware no police officer has challenged or reported another officer for breaking the law until a video has been circulated.