Britain’s longest serving prisoner

[Voyager EMH]

I can’t say I’m a believer in hard labour. I think a meaningless task like breaking rocks could lead to breaking the mind.

However, I also believe it would be possible to implement it. Let’s say a prisoner is sentenced to 10 years but a pre-requisite of early release was to, metaphorically, break rocks for a year. Equally, a refusal might see an increase by a year. Carrot and stick? Incentivise?

Who do you imagine would create such legislation?
And how, do you imagine, would that legislation pass through the two houses of parliament?
What would be the increased cost? Who would be paid to monitor its effectiveness?

The present system already has incentives for good behaviour and penalties of loss of privileges for bad behaviour (number of phone calls/visits, access to TV etc)
Eligibility for parole takes all these into account.

Many prisoners undertake gruelling exercise in the gym when given the opportunity.

 

[Voyager EMH]

Swear some of the jobs were things like sorting out the recycling in the borough. In some prisons sewing mail bags

Stuff like that. Jobs were people would be making minimum wage but they get paid very little to do such. Just enough to cover getting some things from the shop (shower gel and such rather than prison soap, or decent tea bags!)

Even 15 years ago, activities such as that were on the decline due to cuts.
It really added to prison costs (transportation of materials, purchase of tools and equipment, supervision of activity) and showed no real effectiveness to reducing reoffending rates.

The unwritten motto of running prisons, "Cheap is good, but cheaper is better."

Does anyone here fancy a change of career to prison officer?
Available for work 7 days a week including nightshifts.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I go with the need for state retribution commensurate with the crime, but cannot accept calls for vengeance. Some of what is called for on this thread is vengeance...and acts of state vengeance are for me neither justifiable nor required.

 

[Hobbit]

Who do you imagine would create such legislation?
And how, do you imagine, would that legislation pass through the two houses of parliament?
What would be the increased cost? Who would be paid to monitor its effectiveness?

The present system already has incentives for good behaviour and penalties of loss of privileges for bad behaviour (number of phone calls/visits, access to TV etc)
Eligibility for parole takes all these into account.

Many prisoners undertake gruelling exercise in the gym when given the opportunity.

You know who would create the legislation, and you know what it would take for it to pass through the Commons. Don’t you think the way you’ve phrased your questions suggests a very closed mind.

As for increased costs, until the way forward was decided no one will know what the costs would be. As for who would monitor it, how about the same people that monitor prisoner’s activities now. If prisoners switched activities it’s still the same number of prisoners to be ‘watched.’

Hard labour isn’t a new thing, and is used in a number of other countries. I don’t agree with it but I wouldn’t dismiss it out of hand. Equally, reoffending rates suggest the current system isn’t brilliant either.

No, I’ve not worked in the prison service but my regular bowling partner for years did 30-odd years as a prison officer. I know there’s no easy answer…

 

[Billysboots]

I go with the need for state retribution commensurate with the crime, but cannot accept calls for vengeance. Some of what is called for on this thread is vengeance...and acts of state vengeance are for me neither justifiable nor required.

I’m not sure vengeance is necessarily the right word. Vengeance, to me, suggests a retaliatory act intended to compensate me, as an individual, for some loss I have suffered. There’s a difference between vengeance and proportionate punishment.

I’m not necessarily an advocate of the death penalty but, equally, there are some individuals out there for whom I think a case can be made. Those who have been responsible for acts of such depravity and barbarity that they will never serve any useful purpose within a civilised society.

And before anyone hits back with the death penalty being depraved and barbaric, yes, I get that argument. But I’m talking about proportionality.

As for rehabilitation, my view has always been that there are two camps. Those who, having spent time at His Majesty’s pleasure, never, ever want to return. And those who see it as an occupational hazard. I’m not sure there are too many who fall in between the two.

 

[Voyager EMH]

I’m not sure vengeance is necessarily the right word. Vengeance, to me, suggests a retaliatory act intended to compensate me, as an individual, for some loss I have suffered. There’s a difference between vengeance and proportionate punishment.

I’m not necessarily an advocate of the death penalty but, equally, there are some individuals out there for whom I think a case can be made. Those who have been responsible for acts of such depravity and barbarity that they will never serve any useful purpose within a civilised society.

And before anyone hits back with the death penalty being depraved and barbaric, yes, I get that argument. But I’m talking about proportionality.

As for rehabilitation, my view has always been that there are two camps. Those who, having spent time at His Majesty’s pleasure, never, ever want to return. And those who see it as an occupational hazard. I’m not sure there are too many who fall in between the two.

I think that there are many that fall between the two, although your description of two categories is appropriate.

Alcoholics, drug addicts, neglected or abused young adults, mentally unstable. I've seen them come back again and again.
They do their time, but little or no support for them upon release, because a government that increases taxes to pay for social care does not last long or does not get in.

 

[Billysboots]

I think that there are many that fall between the two, although your description of two categories is appropriate.

Alcoholics, drug addicts, neglected or abused young adults, mentally unstable. I've seen them come back again and again.
They do their time, but little or no support for them upon release, because a government that increases taxes to pay for social care does not last long or does not get in.

Very fair point.

 

[Voyager EMH]

I go with the need for state retribution commensurate with the crime, but cannot accept calls for vengeance. Some of what is called for on this thread is vengeance...and acts of state vengeance are for me neither justifiable nor required.

I think that what some people would like is not vengeance.
They would like to see particularly heinous criminals suffer in some way.
But our system of justice and imprisonment does not do this to their satisfaction.
Deliberately inadequate clothing, food, bedding etc is not legislated for. There is a minimum standard that must be met.

Vengeance is too strong a word, but what seems to be desired is some form of mild torture - physical and/or mental.
Again, this is not legislated for and never will be - as far as I can see.
Unless we become like some other countries in the world. I really and truly hope that does not happen.

 

[SocketRocket]

There are too many people in Prison that shouldn't be there, being incarcerated with those that should be does nothing good for them or society. Many should be tagged and under curfew and carrying out useful community work.

Those that deserve to be kept away from society should ideally be receiving the best possible therapy to improve them such that they will eventually be returned as good members of society. I accept that some have created horrendous crimes and may never be suitable for parole but we should never give up on them.

I have held the view that people that have carried out violent and evil crimes against others or those that are habitual criminals should be subject to the death penalty or extreme hard labour but maybe due to advancing years softening my hard held beliefs or making a determined effort to adopt views that look beyond personal prejudice I can see that the adage of 'Results Count' is a better way.

 

[Voyager EMH]

We get our word "justice" from the Holy Roman Emperor Justinian.
He believed that imprisonment should not be used as punishment, but merely a short term before the penalty for the crime is decreed.
Of course back then, the penalty could be banishment, death, flogging, performance of specified deeds, forfeiture of property etc.
He believed long term imprisonment served no purpose, was inhumane to prisoner and jailer, and was an unnecessary cost.

Times changed.

"Hard labour" is never going to happen in this country ever again. It is torture.
If a prisoner refuses to do it, he won't get beaten, denied food etc.
The worst that can happen is minimum level of privileges.

"Hard work" if it involves learning some skills, or gives some feeling of satisfaction on completion, is very popular and many prisoners are keen to do it.