BLM protests/ Riots.

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

To possibly change the embedded racial inequality in society today, especially in countries increasingly being run by right wing popularist leaders?

Yes - of course 100% get that.

But that simply isn't going to be achieved by daily protests that give 'cover' for those who simply wish to perpetrate acts of vandalism and violence against the police. That is why I asked - not what a BLM protest is supposed to achieve or highlight - but what does daily protesting achieve. It is not as if it will bring about the downfall of the current government, a feckless bunch who will have by now recognised the strength of feeling in this matter across society and not simply within the BAME community. And they must know that it will not go away.

I simply feel that continuing protests will achieve nothing more than they have achieved so far, indeed continuing with the protests could be counterproductive; could easily cause an upsurge in Covid-19 cases; and such an upsurge could damage further the lives and life-chances of those whose lives are already very difficult - lives that are bound by constraints that most of us have absolutely no concept of.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Once again the biggest paragraph is on your family problems. Just because you have a son that doesn't seem to be able to cope with the every day problems that millions of other people have to deal with doesn't make it racist.

Which government, there have been many governments of the year who could be accused of not properly addressing the situation but you point your finger at a government you don't like because they don't meet all your sons financial demands. PS get his girlfriend to help as she allegedly lives with him.

I am simply highlighting the difficult situation that I know many will be in - a situation that will only be exacerbated by an upsurge in coronavirus infections and Covid-19 illness and death that might well come about through continuing protests and large gatherings of this or of any sort.

I am NOT pointing the finger at the government. I am NOT suggesting the government is not paying enough through UC. It is what it is - and it is not a lot. Let no-one be in any doubt - UC is not generous...as much as some would like to have us believe - the workshy and feckless having a great time slumming it on UC. And that is why my son is desperate to get back to work. But that will not - and cannot - happen until the infection rate is significantly lower than what it currently.

And THAT is why I am against further protests and find what is going on disappointing and upsetting.

 

[Fade and Die]

Notably with the exception of those of the notorious East India Company (and the less beneficial Ceylon and St Helena) that provide immense wealth for Britain!

Thank you Kuensberg and those exceptions were eliminated by 1843.?

 

[Grant85]

Completely support the protests and while I don't feel the violence (and especially the looting) helps their cause, ultimately actions like this are often necessary to effect change.

Has anything protesters have done been as bad as a policeman kneeling on a handcuffed mans neck?
Or as bad as officers pushing an elderly man to the ground?

The police are there to police the people, but when they demonstrate they are incapable of doing that, it is inevitable that levels of lawlessness will continue.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

There is so many things wrong with that post it’s hard to know where to start , even more so when you are a man of the faith

1. The fact you have tried to bring the current government into it - racism and persecution has been around through every single government going , “getting rid of the government” won’t change anything- so you are using it to post your own personal message

2. Do you seriously not know what they are demonstrating about ? Really ? I expected you to at least be able to understand the message they are trying to pass around -

3. Deluded and Selfish ?! Really - trying to find a way to educate and remove as much persecution and racist behaviour is deluded and selfish ?!

4. I’m not sure why you are ranting about Universal Credit and your sons situation - that’s nothing to do with this and that’s your issue to deal with that to constantly broadcast across the forum.

we all know your issues with the government, be honest with yourself and see that when you post about the virus there is always the bias towards pointing fingers at the government and your rant against the protest once again is biased towards the current government.

1. I have not brought the government into the debate about BLM and the protests other than if the protesters really want a significant change then I suggest that the current incumbents might not be the ones to trust to initiate changes that are required. If nothing happens as a result of the BLM protests then the protesters know what to do at the ballot box next time around.

2. I will repeat. Of COURSE I know what they are demonstrating about - what I said was that I do not understand what they expect daily protests to achieve. But they provide a cover for violence that will detract fro the message and be counter-productive and that is NOT what the vast majority of protesters want. And they unfortunately also result in a significant infection risk - with knock-on impact on individuals and their employment - and hence their well-being. So what now do the protesters expect the government to actually do now that the point has been very strongly and obviously made? Now that I just do not know.

3. The protesters have made their point very strongly and clearly. I think we should all - certainly all who care to listen - now have a very good idea of the issues, if we did not before. BTW - I lived in Bristol for 12 yrs so know about Colston and the slave trade - and from Glasgow I am fully aware of those whose names are enshrined in many street names in the city centre - esp the 'Merchant' City area. The delusion I refer to is that if by doing daily protests they think they can get change that really matters now - then I fear they are misguided. For the change that will bring about ending of the discrimination we need changes in the mindset of many in our society - and the protest will hopefully have initiated that change. Selfish? - do they really not realise that by continuing their protests, without telling us what the short term objectives of the protests are, they simply increase the risk of increased infection; pressures on the NHS; more unnecessary deaths - and continued shut down of business in many areas. And many, many people are suffering hardships and these hardships will continue and worsen for as long as infection rate remains high and many leisure, hospitality and entertainment businesses and have to remain closed.

What does that mean in practice? It means such as my son and his partner, and many hundreds of thousands of others, living off less than £50 a week for food. That's what unemployment (temporary or otherwise) and depending upon UC means. Now that's what it is. And that's why he and 100s of '000s of others are desperate to get back to work.

4. Everything that is happening at the moment is interconnected.

 

[Papas1982]

Completely support the protests and while I don't feel the violence (and especially the looting) helps their cause, ultimately actions like this are often necessary to effect change.

Has anything protesters have done been as bad as a policeman kneeling on a handcuffed mans neck?
Or as bad as officers pushing an elderly man to the ground?

The police are there to police the people, but when they demonstrate they are incapable of doing that, it is inevitable that levels of lawlessness will continue.

As a direct consequence no. As far as I’m aware they haven’t killed someone.

That doesn’t in anyway give them a free pass to commit as many crimes as they like (as long as not murder) and get a free pass.
the consequences of the looting could easily result in non direct deaths In both the short and long term.

I wouldn’t be surprised if some shopkeepers in the poorest areas have little to no insurance. The results could be but not limited to, suicide (short term), hunger, or a total relapse back into the stereotypical life that is often painted for the poorest in America (crime) for which the stats showed death is a common outcome (long term) for those that live that lifestyle.

I honestly would have supported some sort of activism against police property. Not violence to officers. but destroying private property simply sets things further back.

 

[MegaSteve]

Maybe it is time to stop talking about 200+ years ago and really focus on folk who break the law right now. Most of us will have witnessed racist behaviour, heard racist remarks and what did you actually do about it?

Change that.

I was attending protests as far back as the 70's... And, the best part of half a century on we are no further forward... No bloody surprise, to me, there's so much pent up frustration/anger...

 

[Old Skier]

I was attending protests as far back as the 70's... And, the best part of half a century on we are no further forward... No bloody surprise, to me, there's so much pent up frustration/anger...

Perhaps that may have to do more with the nature of the protest rather than what you were protesting about. Most normal civilised people fully understand why people feel they have to make a common issue about racism. Unfortunately the events over the past week have backfire because of the majority not taking responsibility for the minority.

"If there is evil in the world it is not because bad men act but because good men don't" I thought the quote appropriate-don't ask, I don't know.

 

[DanFST]

Unfortunately the events over the past week have backfire because of the majority not taking responsibility for the minority.

Which is exactly what started the protests around the world......

 

[MegaSteve]

Perhaps that may have to do more with the nature of the protest rather than what you were protesting about. Most normal civilised people fully understand why people feel they have to make a common issue about racism. Unfortunately the events over the past week have backfire because of the majority not taking responsibility for the minority.

"If there is evil in the world it is not because bad men act but because good men don't" I thought the quote appropriate-don't ask, I don't know.

Sadly, from previous observation, I suspect all that will come from the establishment is more empty promises... And, we'll be back at some future point discussing the actions of the frustrated ?...

 

[IanM]

I was attending protests as far back as the 70's... And, the best part of half a century on we are no further forward... No bloody surprise, to me, there's so much pent up frustration/anger...

I was thinking the same - I marched with the ANL in the late 70s... that floundered because extremists attached themselves to it and trouble ensued. But, I do think the world has moved on massively since then, but a hardcore remains.

 

[MegaSteve]

I was thinking the same - I marched with the ANL in the late 70s... that floundered because extremists attached themselves to it and trouble ensued. But, I do think the world has moved on massively since then, but a hardcore remains.

Unfortunately, the focus has a way of 'finding' the extremes... Deflecting the honest aims/hopes of the majority...

 

[SocketRocket]

I heard a young man on the radio saying 'Its not good enough to say you're not a racist, you should be actively anti racist'
I have thought about what he said and I find it difficult to understand exactly what he is expecting of people. According to him I should be active in being anti racist, does that mean I should be marching and protesting in the street otherwise I am racist.

All the protests and 'taking the knee' is pointless unless it actively achieves your aims or sets in place the processes that achieve them. So what are these people who are protesting actually asking for, do they want to change peoples views on racism or do they want to see some radical change in society that make black lives matter more than they do now, and, what are these changes.

Would it not be better if someone or some group laid out clear objectives that they felt would create a world where 'Black Lives Mattered' more than they do now because I'm struggling to understand what's being asked of me as a white person. It seems to me that in this country and most other democracies people have equal rights and oppertunities. Do these demonstrators want to change the way people think and if so how do they propose this should happen, you cant simply tell people 'stop thinking this or that way' you can only have laws that prohibit people acting in a manner that discriminates against race, age, disability etc, only education can help to change mindsets.

All these demonstrations are a complete waste of time if they cant put out a message more than soundbites

 

[Old Skier]

Well it appears now that Francis Drake is on the "black" list. I suspect they will need more people than were in Bristol if they fancy their chances in Plymouth. Interesting times.

 

[SocketRocket]

Well it appears now that Francis Drake is on the "black" list. I suspect they will need more people than were in Bristol if they fancy their chances in Plymouth. Interesting times.

Will his drum be going over the wall on the Hoe.

 

[Old Skier]

Will his drum be going over the wall on the Hoe.

Judging by the number who turned out to protect the war memorial in Plymouth nothing will be going over any wall other than the odd visitor.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I heard a young man on the radio saying 'Its not good enough to say you're not a racist, you should be actively anti racist'
I have thought about what he said and I find it difficult to understand exactly what he is expecting of people. According to him I should be active in being anti racist, does that mean I should be marching and protesting in the street otherwise I am racist.

All the protests and 'taking the knee' is pointless unless it actively achieves your aims or sets in place the processes that achieve them. So what are these people who are protesting actually asking for, do they want to change peoples views on racism or do they want to see some radical change in society that make black lives matter more than they do now, and, what are these changes.

Would it not be better if someone or some group laid out clear objectives that they felt would create a world where 'Black Lives Mattered' more than they do now because I'm struggling to understand what's being asked of me as a white person. It seems to me that in this country and most other democracies people have equal rights and oppertunities. Do these demonstrators want to change the way people think and if so how do they propose this should happen, you cant simply tell people 'stop thinking this or that way' you can only have laws that prohibit people acting in a manner that discriminates against race, age, disability etc, only education can help to change mindsets.

All these demonstrations are a complete waste of time if they cant put out a message more than soundbites

And this where I am on them continuing - or not. What is it BLM protesters really want to happen now and in the short term? What do they want government to say that they will do now? Because we have a very critical immediate short term crisis with a terrible risk being run by the demonstrations continuing.

As much as I am supportive and have absolutely no issues with BLM demonstrations - I would simply ask protesters to consider the balance of BLM objectives that can be achieved now and the coronavirus risk being run.

 

[DanFST]

Following up on SocketRockets post. US protests want defunding of the police, which is probably the most insane thing I've ever heard.

There are systematic problems that Black communities face here, but there is no short term solution to this. And no one will admit it, but the communities need to change also.

If we all just respected each other and were accountable for our actions the world would be a better place. Tribalism is for the stupid and close-minded, it achieves nothing.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Following up on SocketRockets post. US protests want defunding of the police, which is probably the most insane thing I've ever heard.

There are systematic problems that Black communities face here, but there is no short term solution to this. And no one will admit it, but the communities need to change also.

If we all just respected each other and were accountable for our actions the world would be a better place. Tribalism is for the stupid and close-minded, it achieves nothing.

From what I understand - the issues with the US police are much more fundamental, and are more about the nature of the policing coming out of the origins of the police, police structures, remit and governance, with racism in much of the US police being one - perhaps most important - manifestation of that - most especially in the south where the police were set up with a primary objective being to protect the interests of slave owners.

https://time.com/4779112/police-history-origins/

In the South, however, the economics that drove the creation of police forces were centered not on the protection of shipping interests but on the preservation of the slavery system. Some of the primary policing institutions there were the slave patrols tasked with chasing down runaways and preventing slave revolts, Potter says; the first formal slave patrol had been created in the Carolina colonies in 1704. During the Civil War, the military became the primary form of law enforcement in the South, but during Reconstruction, many local sheriffs functioned in a way analogous to the earlier slave patrols, enforcing segregation and the disenfranchisement of freed slaves.

 

[Hacker Khan]

A personal view.

I have been to school, college, University and employed and being employed by various people from ethnic backgrounds. I have taught, have many friends and also had personal relationships with people who were not Caucasians, I'm a godfather to a foreign person.

I would never knowing discriminate against anyone.

However I worry that as white person there is now the assumption I am racist but don't know it. Moreover it now seems to be acceptable to make racist anti-white statements with impunity.

There are areas of the UK I would not visit. I have worked with companies that discriminate against white people and only employ members of their own ethnicity. Other employers dare not employ/promote a white person if a minority candidate is in the list

There is a danger that the desire is not for equality but positive discrimination.

We need an open balanced debate about equality.

No there is not, however everyone should occasionally kind of audit where they are with regards to the current societal norms and progress that is made. It's just that when people in the current climate start bleating on about white people getting discriminated against, can you not see it looks a bit 'silly'?

Yes I am sure it is the case that white people have been discriminated against. But on balance I think we have got off relatively well over the last few hundred years. So perhaps first address the biggest issues with the inequalities black people suffer in society. And then if white people are being targeted and racially profiled then we can start a white lives matter march.