Ethan
Money List Winner
Yes. His breach, not yours in that example. though. If you ask for advice, your breach.
Anything other than matters of fact constitutes advice.
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Would you say anything?
- Thread starter bozza
- Start date
Yes. His breach, not yours in that example. though. If you ask for advice, your breach.
Anything other than matters of fact constitutes advice.
barrybridges
Head Pro
I think that maybe this is being blown out of proportion - and that there's a sensible diplomatic answer here.
Although it's a junior, I think the issue is really that her playing partners were not acting appropriately in giving her advice. I do think that such advice would make a difference; as a junior she is likely to be less experienced and the advice of her more experienced playing partners (we assume) would mean she avoids errors arising from alignment, shot selection, distance awareness and other local knowledge.
That said, all it should take is a quiet and polite chat to the playing partner just to say 'look, I haven't got a problem with it, but I saw you helping out the junior on the course and it's actually against the rules to do it - if someone else saw it, they'd have a right to complain'.
Nothing more than that. Keep it under the radar rather than going to the competition sec, otherwise you'll be branded a killjoy.
Although it's a junior, I think the issue is really that her playing partners were not acting appropriately in giving her advice. I do think that such advice would make a difference; as a junior she is likely to be less experienced and the advice of her more experienced playing partners (we assume) would mean she avoids errors arising from alignment, shot selection, distance awareness and other local knowledge.
That said, all it should take is a quiet and polite chat to the playing partner just to say 'look, I haven't got a problem with it, but I saw you helping out the junior on the course and it's actually against the rules to do it - if someone else saw it, they'd have a right to complain'.
Nothing more than that. Keep it under the radar rather than going to the competition sec, otherwise you'll be branded a killjoy.
garyinderry
Ryder Cup Winner
has there been a four ball in the history of golf that hasnt dropped a bit of advice to their playing parnters. smiffys right, for once. this gets broken regularly before groups have left the first tee! load of old clobblers anyway. rarely do you see anyone actually listen to the advice and be able to implement it into their game during that particular round. can be a quick fix for one shot but players ALWAYS return to type. it needs work before it can be ingrained.
FaldosJumper
Challenge Tour Pro
For me the biggest issue would be the delay in game they were causing by giving/demonstrating this advice. Like many have said this is blown out of all proportion and who hasn't played in a group when someones said slow it down, you're over swinging or you need to find a new hobby?
I tend to think the OP feels this too otherwise why ask the question instead of taking the bull by the horns?
I tend to think the OP feels this too otherwise why ask the question instead of taking the bull by the horns?
DaveM
Tour Winner
Sorry but rules are rules. End of.
FaldosJumper
Challenge Tour Pro
Each to their own but the friendly tips/advice doesn't bother me. It's totally different to I hit an 8 iron there you should hit it too or the break is three balls to the right. IMHO, a round with some of you must be a right blast
garyinderry
Ryder Cup Winner
Each to their own but the friendly tips/advice doesn't bother me. It's totally different to I hit an 8 iron there you should hit it too or the break is three balls to the right. IMHO, a round with some of you must be a right blast
i agree
Ethan
Money List Winner
Each to their own but the friendly tips/advice doesn't bother me. It's totally different to I hit an 8 iron there you should hit it too or the break is three balls to the right. IMHO, a round with some of you must be a right blast
I think the whole point of Rules is that it is not each to their own. The Rules make it quite clear that giving advice on clubbing, line or how to play is prohibited. That is not in dispute.
So, if you do so knowingly, the question is not whether you are a cheat or not - you clearly are as much of a cheat as someone who moves their ball in the rough of knocks a shot off their score for a hole. I dispute the notion that everybody does this, but even if they did, that is no defence nor does it make it lesser grade cheating.
Airlie_Andy
Challenge Tour Pro
Just a quick question. Having played my first comp on Saturday I was slightly nervous on the first and 3 putted because I rushed a short putt and missed it. For the rest of the round when I had I left a shortish putt after my first putt one of the fourball would say "take your time Andy". Is this classed as advice?
On the subject at hand it does sound like the advice being given was way too much in a competition situation. It sounds more like a playing lesson than a competition round so for me it's not on.
On the subject at hand it does sound like the advice being given was way too much in a competition situation. It sounds more like a playing lesson than a competition round so for me it's not on.
garyinderry
Ryder Cup Winner
if i was a complete stick in the mud then yes, this is classed as advice. i cant see how its not advice. its the same as saying use a smoother stroke, slow it down etc. in saying that, i dont think ive played a round of golf where one golfer hasnt given another a tip during the round or given so called expert advice.
bladeplayer
Money List Winner
Bozza makes a very good point here tho , in golf competitions what is the Difference between a medal /captains/ honours board comp & a wed morning stableford comp, RULES WISE? .. whats the difference between the smallest european tour comp & the masters rules wise?,, answer NONE !
Ok we can be pedantic & pick up on a guy who has putted & stopped on the edge & says im going to hole out ok ? & you reply take your time , is that advice etc ? There is always going to be minor breaches that are that slight most people wont even be aware (& no ignorance is no excuse) but what happened here is an obvious breach of the rules , & does that change because it was a juniour ? no .. how are juniours supose to learn the proper rules if they are been thought incorrectly by other members ?
I would hate to ruin the girls enjoyment of the game etc so maybe say it nice & politely to the others involved .... Barry summed it up nicely ..
"That said, all it should take is a quiet and polite chat to the playing partner just to say 'look, I haven't got a problem with it, but I saw you helping out the junior on the course and it's actually against the rules to do it - if someone else saw it, they'd have a right to complain'."
Ok we can be pedantic & pick up on a guy who has putted & stopped on the edge & says im going to hole out ok ? & you reply take your time , is that advice etc ? There is always going to be minor breaches that are that slight most people wont even be aware (& no ignorance is no excuse) but what happened here is an obvious breach of the rules , & does that change because it was a juniour ? no .. how are juniours supose to learn the proper rules if they are been thought incorrectly by other members ?
I would hate to ruin the girls enjoyment of the game etc so maybe say it nice & politely to the others involved .... Barry summed it up nicely ..
"That said, all it should take is a quiet and polite chat to the playing partner just to say 'look, I haven't got a problem with it, but I saw you helping out the junior on the course and it's actually against the rules to do it - if someone else saw it, they'd have a right to complain'."
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Ethan
Money List Winner
From the Rules of Golf - Definitions
"Advice" is any counsel or suggestion that could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of a club or the method of making a stroke.
Information on the Rules, distance or matters of public information, such as the position of hazards or the flagstick on the putting green, is not advice.
So telling someone to take it easy, swing smoothly or take plenty of club are all advice. Perhaps not quite so explicit as 'take a 5 iron and aim at the bunker on the right'.
"Advice" is any counsel or suggestion that could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of a club or the method of making a stroke.
Information on the Rules, distance or matters of public information, such as the position of hazards or the flagstick on the putting green, is not advice.
So telling someone to take it easy, swing smoothly or take plenty of club are all advice. Perhaps not quite so explicit as 'take a 5 iron and aim at the bunker on the right'.
Matty
Tour Rookie
I can see the dilemma here and it's not simple to sort.
The Rules are crystal clear - Rule 8.1 says you must not give or request 'advice' during any stipualted round under penalty of 2 strokes in stroke play or loss of the hole in match play. 'Advice' is then defined as any counsel or suggestion that could influence a player in determining his play but clarifies that matters of public information are okay, so yards to the green, flagstick position, position of hazards etc.
So, saying to someone "slow down" is a breach IMO, but it could be argued that "that's a fast swing" is okay was that's a public information fact - anyone could have seen the swing was fast.
Back to the OP though - aiding someone in setting their stance, picking their club etc is in breach of this rule. Fine for a social round if she's learning but surely not in a competition.
As others have said, I think I'd raise my concerns with the club captain or secretary and let them sort it out - okay it's only £15 but the other ladies playing may have been playing strictly by the rules the hope of winning and been left with no change by someone who broke the rules. Not the girls fault perhaps but nevertheless the outcome of the comp has been influenced.
The Rules are crystal clear - Rule 8.1 says you must not give or request 'advice' during any stipualted round under penalty of 2 strokes in stroke play or loss of the hole in match play. 'Advice' is then defined as any counsel or suggestion that could influence a player in determining his play but clarifies that matters of public information are okay, so yards to the green, flagstick position, position of hazards etc.
So, saying to someone "slow down" is a breach IMO, but it could be argued that "that's a fast swing" is okay was that's a public information fact - anyone could have seen the swing was fast.
Back to the OP though - aiding someone in setting their stance, picking their club etc is in breach of this rule. Fine for a social round if she's learning but surely not in a competition.
As others have said, I think I'd raise my concerns with the club captain or secretary and let them sort it out - okay it's only £15 but the other ladies playing may have been playing strictly by the rules the hope of winning and been left with no change by someone who broke the rules. Not the girls fault perhaps but nevertheless the outcome of the comp has been influenced.
garyinderry
Ryder Cup Winner
does everyone stringently apply this rule then to themselves and playing parnters. hands up whos honestly given themselves or playing partners penalty strokes over this matter?
Ethan
Money List Winner
It is not public information that a swing is fast or slow.
Look, the issue here is not to get all jobsworth on the kid, but she needs to know before it happens in a big comp where it does matter and where it will cause a big problem for her and her reputation.
bladeplayer
Money List Winner
Over the take your time one ?or no rush etc ? to me im not helping him in any way im just saying play when you are ready .. Telling or advising someone else to slow down their swing is advice tho ..
One im not 100% sure on & we would do quiet often if im honest is playing out of turn , we play when we are ready to play or on short par 4 or risk or reward par 5 we would let shorter hitters play first .. we see it as keeping play moving, others could view it gaining some knowledge from another players shot etc ..
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Matty
Tour Rookie
I did say it 'could be argued' - it's down to opinion. I wonder if the RandA have even been asked this?!?
I agree that changing the outcome from the weekend is not going to do anyone an favours but that's up to the club - as you point out it needs raised before this becomes a much bigger issue for her in years to come - last thing she'll want is a future DQ.
ScienceBoy
Money List Winner
If I was in the group I would say something, if I was standing on the tee I would remind the gent of the rules.
I see the issue is with the person giving the advice, the junior should be taught by someone else to turn down advice in comps. Maybe having a word with the junior coach to ensure the kids have the courage to say no and know the rules on advice.
I see the issue is with the person giving the advice, the junior should be taught by someone else to turn down advice in comps. Maybe having a word with the junior coach to ensure the kids have the courage to say no and know the rules on advice.
bozza
Journeyman Pro
I seem to have caused quite a stir with my post.
It was not my home course i was playing and the only way it affected me was that they held up play a bit and that got me out of my rhythm which then in turned to annoy me for a few holes which in turn i played bad.
If it had been my home course and it had been someone who had been competing against then yes i would have had a word.
Just wonder how the 2 men would feel if she broke this rule in a big comp and it cost her and she was upset because she thought it was ok because they had done it with her her in lesser comps.
It was not my home course i was playing and the only way it affected me was that they held up play a bit and that got me out of my rhythm which then in turned to annoy me for a few holes which in turn i played bad.
If it had been my home course and it had been someone who had been competing against then yes i would have had a word.
Just wonder how the 2 men would feel if she broke this rule in a big comp and it cost her and she was upset because she thought it was ok because they had done it with her her in lesser comps.
Slab
Occasional Tour Caddy
Can someone confirm if she in fact broke any rule based on the information we have in this thread?
With what we've read then the guys did but surely this wouldn't effect her score unless she asked for the advice & we've read nothing to suggest that it happened like that
Can you put a penalty on the junior if she's not seeking the advice?
If that were true wouldn't it be all too easy to tell the guy leading by one from your mate with you 2 shots further back & all on the 18th fairway that 'a 6 iron is the best club for his approach', hey presto he gets a penalty (so do you but your mate wins)
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