World Handicap System (WHS)

[rulefan]

DoB is not a 100% reliable way of differentiating between two golfers of the same name. If they wanted to do that then they surely would use the CDH number of the player?

May be they are hoping to eliminate duplicates that have come from all the duplicates/triplicates already in the CDH.

I know, I know: clubs are supposed to have cleansed their files but it been very hit and miss. Many clubs haven't responded either through shortage of handicap c'ees. h'cap secs, disinterested owners or sheer indifference. I'm in the middle of 2 cases at the moment and sorted a couple last month. The current cases involve 'the lady in the office' getting approved membership applications from 'the boss/owner', then putting new members into the membership system and then the handicap system without checking anything.

 

[nickjdavis]

We didn't even have a comprehensive list of members emails until last weekend. Sure they were all on the clubs email distribution list and maybe 25% were on the Handicapping software system (we dont use the handicapping system as a membership database). The committee sent the club a list of all members on our Handicap Software and got the "lady in the office" (in our case one of the girls behind the bar) to look up the paper forms that members filled in when they joined.

I guess its an issue where the business operations of the club (bar, restaurant, golf course management) is run and managed separately from the competitions/handicapping side of the club (largely undertaken by volunteers).

As a committee we feel we have actually been ahead of the curve in respect of a lot of the migration of the WHS but boy the "authorities" have made it a lot harder for us than it could have been.

 

[Swango1980]

I'm sure this will have been touched on already, so apologies, but it's only just hit my radar.

For individual strokeplay the playing allowance is 95% but for individual matchplay it's 100%. Why the difference, it seems odd?

My thinking is as follows:

If you had a scratch golfer, and took their best 8 scores, there probably wouldn't be much variation between them, they'd all be pretty close to the average of them (I.e. their Index). So, if s scratch golfer scored their best round in 20, it may not be significantly better than their Index.

For a golfer with, say a 30 Index, the spread of their best 8 would be higher than the scratch golfer, so there would be more variation around their index. Therefore, for their best round (or 2 or 3 rounds) in 20, their score would be lower under their index than the scratch golfer shot when they scored their best in 20.

As a result, although a scratch golfer will generally find themselves higher up the leaderboard than the higher handicapper, they are less likely to be top of it because, even if they shoot their best round in 20, they won't beat a higher handicappers best round in 20. This becomes more likely as the field size grows.

The above would be my concern with WHS, but perhaps the research shows the 95% addresses this problem.

Matchplay is a different format. A higher handicapper may lose a shot hole. They may win a shot hole by 2 shots. In both cases they don't use their shot, and cannot carry it over and use it on another hole. Therefore, the lower handicapper tends to have more of an advantage in that respect.

 

[mikejohnchapman]

That's what an email does, surely? I am quite sure that there are several others with the same first name, last name and DOB as myself.

Could it possibly used as a means of securely resetting as password if forgotten?

 

[rulefan]

My thinking is as follows:

If you had a scratch golfer, and took their best 8 scores, there probably wouldn't be much variation between them, they'd all be pretty close to the average of them (I.e. their Index). So, if s scratch golfer scored their best round in 20, it may not be significantly better than their Index.

For a golfer with, say a 30 Index, the spread of their best 8 would be higher than the scratch golfer, so there would be more variation around their index. Therefore, for their best round (or 2 or 3 rounds) in 20, their score would be lower under their index than the scratch golfer shot when they scored their best in 20.

As a result, although a scratch golfer will generally find themselves higher up the leaderboard than the higher handicapper, they are less likely to be top of it because, even if they shoot their best round in 20, they won't beat a higher handicappers best round in 20. This becomes more likely as the field size grows.

The above would be my concern with WHS, but perhaps the research shows the 95% addresses this problem.

Matchplay is a different format. A higher handicapper may lose a shot hole. They may win a shot hole by 2 shots. In both cases they don't use their shot, and cannot carry it over and use it on another hole. Therefore, the lower handicapper tends to have more of an advantage in that respect.

That is spot on.
Both North America and Australia had a Bonus for Excellence (96% & 93%) built in to to the base handicap. But that affected matchplay also and other stats showed that the lower capper won 55% of matches without the bonus.

 

[Ethan]

My thinking is as follows:

If you had a scratch golfer, and took their best 8 scores, there probably wouldn't be much variation between them, they'd all be pretty close to the average of them (I.e. their Index). So, if s scratch golfer scored their best round in 20, it may not be significantly better than their Index.

For a golfer with, say a 30 Index, the spread of their best 8 would be higher than the scratch golfer, so there would be more variation around their index. Therefore, for their best round (or 2 or 3 rounds) in 20, their score would be lower under their index than the scratch golfer shot when they scored their best in 20.

As a result, although a scratch golfer will generally find themselves higher up the leaderboard than the higher handicapper, they are less likely to be top of it because, even if they shoot their best round in 20, they won't beat a higher handicappers best round in 20. This becomes more likely as the field size grows.

The above would be my concern with WHS, but perhaps the research shows the 95% addresses this problem.

Matchplay is a different format. A higher handicapper may lose a shot hole. They may win a shot hole by 2 shots. In both cases they don't use their shot, and cannot carry it over and use it on another hole. Therefore, the lower handicapper tends to have more of an advantage in that respect.

This is the reason that handicaps are pitched at your 75th percentile score not the 50th, because the variability is greater for higher handicaps, so when they are off they are way off, but when they are on, they would win most of the time. The 95% is a refinement of it.

 

[IanM]

And Kaz, tales abound over there of some "well known faces" who have been shooting well above their general range for several months in preparation of next year's Opens. "Cheats Charter" is what it's getting called.

I have a Wales Golf "Players Briefing" Webinar at 5pm tonight - last time it crashed. I am looking forward to feeling impressed and confident about next month. I wonder if that will be the case come 6pm?

 

[IanMcC]

And Kaz, tales abound over there of some "well known faces" who have been shooting well above their general range for several months in preparation of next year's Opens. "Cheats Charter" is what it's getting called.

I have a Wales Golf "Players Briefing" Webinar at 5pm tonight - last time it crashed. I am looking forward to feeling impressed and confident about next month. I wonder if that will be the case come 6pm?

I am sitting in on that as well. It is described as 'An easy to understand presentation which will explain the introduction of the WHS and how to use it for your golf from November 2nd.' I have my doubts.....

 

[Bdill93]

Now that the penny is starting to drop on how handicaps are going to be worked out I must admit to being concerned.

It seems the general expectation is low handicappers will see a cut when their handicap index comes out and high handicappers an increase (possibly several shots).

Now looking at course handicaps (for my course) I see that someone with a HI 1 will have a course handicap of 1 but someone with a HI 26 (for example) will have a course handicap of 30. We have a few players in the high twenties/early thirties who already regularly clean up in comps, particularly non-counting formats. These players are going to be getting a shedload of extra shots under WHS. The whole system seems unfairly skewed.

Add in that they are under no compunction to ever submit a handicap counting card again.... Seems very wrong.

Dont forget that stroke play will be played at 95% of handicap. I know it doesnt make a massive difference but the HI 26 would play off 28.5 (29) not 30 in medals etc. Tends to create a loss of one shot on average from playing handicaps but anyone over PH of 30 will lose more than 1!

 

[IanM]

I am sitting in on that as well. It is described as 'An easy to understand presentation which will explain the introduction of the WHS and how to use it for your golf from November 2nd.' I have my doubts.....

Where are you based?

I hope they don't rerun bits of the old presentation about how wonderful this all is and how it will enable everyone to play evenly with everyone else. In their defence, I think if you forget the maths, don't interrogate it and just use the Apps and table it'll be fine. There have always been handicap cheats at Opens. Normal folk just go for the cheap green fee... and clap politely at the 46 point scoring winner!

 

[nickjdavis]

Could it possibly used as a means of securely resetting as password if forgotten?

why dont they ask you to set your own security question...name of pet, first girl/boyfriends name, favourite sweet in a bag of Revels?

nah...i dont buy it Mike

 

[IanMcC]

Where are you based?

I hope they don't rerun bits of the old presentation about how wonderful this all is and how it will enable everyone to play evenly with everyone else. In their defence, I think if you forget the maths, don't interrogate it and just use the Apps and table it'll be fine. There have always been handicap cheats at Opens. Normal folk just go for the cheap green fee... and clap politely at the 46 point scoring winner!

I am M&H at Rhuddlan. Im not expecting much tonight. It all seems a bit up in the air at the moment.
Just a bit worried that England Golf are starting to have access to the WHS Platform, although it seems riddled with anomalies, whilst we are hearing nothing.
On your second point, I had to DQ a pair of lads recently in a 4BBB Open. One had a proper handicap, but the other 'just put down 16'. Of course, he played like a Cat 1 player!
I dont mind people with no handicaps playing in our Opens to get a cheap round, so long as they dont expect to pick up a prize.

 

[woofers]

Now looking at course handicaps (for my course) I see that someone with a HI 1 will have a course handicap of 1 but someone with a HI 26 (for example) will have a course handicap of 30.

Add in that they are under no compunction to ever submit a handicap counting card again.... Seems very wrong.

For that to be the case your Slope Rating must be around 130? So what handicap are they currently? Remember, current handicaps have to have an element of de-sloping applied to arrive at the HI.

Final point, surely the winners of said competitions are competing in acceptable score events and the card will count.

 

[jim8flog]

Now that the penny is starting to drop on how handicaps are going to be worked out I must admit to being concerned.

It seems the general expectation is low handicappers will see a cut when their handicap index comes out and high handicappers an increase (possibly several shots).

Now looking at course handicaps (for my course) I see that someone with a HI 1 will have a course handicap of 1 but someone with a HI 26 (for example) will have a course handicap of 30. We have a few players in the high twenties/early thirties who already regularly clean up in comps, particularly non-counting formats. These players are going to be getting a shedload of extra shots under WHS. The whole system seems unfairly skewed.

Add in that they are under no compunction to ever submit a handicap counting card again.... Seems very wrong.

Does your club not operate divisions

Ours are mainly based upon the numbers in each group
We a have
up to 10
11-16
17 and above

Means that generally like are competing against like.

 

[Ethan]

Now that the penny is starting to drop on how handicaps are going to be worked out I must admit to being concerned.

It seems the general expectation is low handicappers will see a cut when their handicap index comes out and high handicappers an increase (possibly several shots).

Now looking at course handicaps (for my course) I see that someone with a HI 1 will have a course handicap of 1 but someone with a HI 26 (for example) will have a course handicap of 30. We have a few players in the high twenties/early thirties who already regularly clean up in comps, particularly non-counting formats. These players are going to be getting a shedload of extra shots under WHS. The whole system seems unfairly skewed.

Add in that they are under no compunction to ever submit a handicap counting card again.... Seems very wrong.

I am not sure. The course handicap is really the one that is closest to the current, with the difficulty of the course baked in. At our course we have few higher handicaps who clean up, it is mostly those up to 10 or so.

 

[IanM]

Wales Golf "player" briefing webinar at 5pm today............. clicked link. Dead screen. If this over subscribed or just another foul-up???

Time to get some professionals working on this please folks.... I am 15 mins from Celtic Manor, if you want me to fix it!

EDIT: Finally got in using the access codes right at the end of the email , not the link listed as "click here to join!!" - so the clue wasn't in the title.

What I have seen so far has been written by rules boffins! My HI will (he says) be available on WG App in a week...then he says "hopefully!"

Now they have a very dull table about the average of your differentials!

 

[IanM]

Best think he said so far is "leave it to the software!"

 

[IanMcC]

No revelations on the webinar so far, except that we can expect access to the WHS Portal in a week or so. There is a section later on the transition. Maybe some news there.

 

[IanM]

In fairness to Wales Golf... they are not doing too bad! Bit wobbly on the mix of detail. but maybe I am over sensitive to this due to my job!

In short... leave it to the software! Otherwise you'll get a headache!

 

[IanMcC]

Indeed. No real option not to leave it to the software, as it is too complex.
Wales Golf doing fine, but no real new facts so far.
Nice to have confirmation that CH needed to avoid DQ.