World Handicap System (WHS)

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

First point - yes, I do know that.

Second point - the handicap that the software will show is that prior to any adjustment necessary from an Away score which merits a reduction.

My original point was that the software will allow the current handicap held in the database to be reduced but not increased. If the roll up rules involve reductions and increases - and many do - the software could not handle increases.

Our rollup only involves reductions in handicap - other than the one time in the year that they are reset to the club handicap (end of summer competitive season usually after first weekend in Nov). Idea is to reduce the likelihood of any one individual winning repeatedly - if someone does - then they will get cut then cut again as necessary and eventually they stop winning

 

[jim8flog]

thanks might get winter membership, local club doing one for 100 quid from nov

You only retain the handicap whilst you remain a member of an affiliated golf club so at the end of winter membership if you do not take out full membership you will no longer have a handicap.

 

[rulefan]

Our rollup only involves reductions in handicap - other than the one time in the year that they are reset to the club handicap (end of summer competitive season usually after first weekend in Nov). Idea is to reduce the likelihood of any one individual winning repeatedly - if someone does - then they will get cut then cut again as necessary and eventually they stop winning

Ah. Got it now, your rollups do not involve CONGU at all.
Do you or the organisers propose to get Committee approval for them to be authorised for WHS?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Had to miss out the Q&A session of our WHS briefing by the club last night but no doubt status of our rollup will have been asked.

I also missed whether there will be a cap on the increase from current handicap to handicap index. Just simply looking at my best 8 from last 20 - without exaggeration my scoring reflects that of a 16 handicapper not someone off 9. Could I actually go up that much?

 

[2blue]

Had to miss out the Q&A session of our WHS briefing by the club last night but no doubt status of our rollup will have been asked.

I also missed whether there will be a cap on the increase from current handicap to handicap index. Just simply looking at my best 8 from last 20 - without exaggeration my scoring reflects that of a 16 handicapper not someone off 9. Could I actually go up that much?

I've heard that 'caps' will be applied but I'm unclear on how far back they go to find the lowest h/cap to apply. Will it be back to Jan 2019 or the extended Jan 2018?

 

[rulefan]

I also missed whether there will be a cap on the increase from current handicap to handicap index. Just simply looking at my best 8 from last 20 - without exaggeration my scoring reflects that of a 16 handicapper not someone off 9. Could I actually go up that much?

My understanding (but not confirmed) is that the whole process will take each individual score since 2018 (not just the last 20) and apply the full WHS process to them sequentially. So any soft or hard cap will be applied. In addition, your handicap committee will be able to review and adjust an individual's awarded index.

 

[2blue]

My understanding (but not confirmed) is that the whole process will take each individual score since 2018 (not just the last 20) and apply the full WHS process to them sequentially. So any soft or hard cap will be applied. In addition, your handicap committee will be able to review and adjust an individual's awarded index.

Thanks, are we likely to know when/if it will be confirmed & whether we'll be receiving advice on what criteria to use when Committees review the awarded indexes? Gonna be a 'fun' time until things settle down.

 

[Junior]

My understanding (but not confirmed) is that the whole process will take each individual score since 2018 (not just the last 20) and apply the full WHS process to them sequentially. So any soft or hard cap will be applied. In addition, your handicap committee will be able to review and adjust an individual's awarded index.

Firstly, thanks for your input on this thread. I've learnt a lot from your posts

Just a question re the above, I heard that the initial calculation was going to be systematic using the database of individual (handicap qualifying) scores that each club has on each player. Ie. Every recorded score on IG or HDID ? Committee's can then make adjustments they see fit. Is this your understanding also ?

Also, for the calculation, I presume NR's in any qualifying score will be recorded as a nett double bogey ?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

My understanding (but not confirmed) is that the whole process will take each individual score since 2018 (not just the last 20) and apply the full WHS process to them sequentially. So any soft or hard cap will be applied. In addition, your handicap committee will be able to review and adjust an individual's awarded index.

Hmmm. My 2019 golf was not a lot better as I didn’t play any qualifiers whatsoever until July...and then after 6 months without, my golf was rubbish.

I am good at playing multiple rubbish rounds in a row each having me drift up 0.1 then I throw in a goodie and I get cut 0.4 or 0.6...then back to playing rubbish and 0.1s - then another goodie...

 

[mikejohnchapman]

My understanding (but not confirmed) is that the whole process will take each individual score since 2018 (not just the last 20) and apply the full WHS process to them sequentially. So any soft or hard cap will be applied. In addition, your handicap committee will be able to review and adjust an individual's awarded index.

Really? why would they do that?

We have lots of players who have been putting in qualifying and supplementary scores since lockdown and have 20+ scores to populate their playing records. Why go back to 2018 when it's not necessary?

I think by far a bigger issue is the use of default CR & SR where they can't establish the tees used to register a score. Should the tee not be clearly identifiable then the Course Rating will be equal to SSS and the slope will be allocated at 125.

We have been told by the county our handicap committee won't get to see the handicaps until late October so will have no real chance of review and by the sound of it little understanding of the basis for the calculation. Thanks WHS!

Beginning to think this process isn't very good.

 

[Swango1980]

Really? why would they do that?

We have lots of players who have been putting in qualifying and supplementary scores since lockdown and have 20+ scores to populate their playing records. Why go back to 2018 when it's not necessary?

I think by far a bigger issue is the use of default CR & SR where they can't establish the tees used to register a score. Should the tee not be clearly identifiable then the Course Rating will be equal to SSS and the slope will be allocated at 125.

We have been told by the county our handicap committee won't get to see the handicaps until late October so will have no real chance of review and by the sound of it little understanding of the basis for the calculation. Thanks WHS!

Beginning to think this process isn't very good.

In terms of still going back to 2018, if they do, I can see that being important in terms of at least applying soft and hard caps. Otherwise, for example, a single figure handicapper could have submitted 20 scores in last couple of months, played awful, and get an Index of 20+.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

In terms of still going back to 2018, if they do, I can see that being important in terms of at least applying soft and hard caps. Otherwise, for example, a single figure handicapper could have submitted 20 scores in last couple of months, played awful, and get an Index of 20+.

My circumstances...albeit over a longer period.

 

[mikejohnchapman]

In terms of still going back to 2018, if they do, I can see that being important in terms of at least applying soft and hard caps. Otherwise, for example, a single figure handicapper could have submitted 20 scores in last couple of months, played awful, and get an Index of 20+.

But if they have played "20 scores in the last couple of months" why go back to 2018. The Caps apply to the lowest point in the last 12 months and as there were few qualifiers over last winter going back further is largely irrelevant.

If they gave us time the handicap committees can look at out-of-line situations without getting inundated.

 

[mikejohnchapman]

My circumstances...albeit over a longer period.

I'm not sure what point you are making. WHS is supposed to reflect how you are playing now - not your best period a couple of years ago. If you cannot play to your UHS handicap now and keep going up by 0.1 surely it should be reset to a more realistic level?

 

[Swango1980]

But if they have played "20 scores in the last couple of months" why go back to 2018. The Caps apply to the lowest point in the last 12 months and as there were few qualifiers over last winter going back further is largely irrelevant.

If they gave us time the handicap committees can look at out-of-line situations without getting inundated.

Although a hard and soft cap looks back 1 year into the past, that handicap 1 year in the past would have had to be worked out based on scores before that.

So, a player has played 20 rounds since 2nd November 2019 (or just a bit before, depending on when Indexes will actually be set). Played terrible (most of rounds may have been played back end of this year due to winter and then lockdown). Their Index comes out as 25. Their CONGU handicap is 10.

However, had the 20 scores been taken before November 2019, their Index may have come out as 8.0 on the date of 2nd November 2019. So, despite having a terrible 2019, their Index calculated on 2nd November 2020 would be 13.0, not 25.0, due to hard cap.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I'm not sure what point you are making. WHS is supposed to reflect how you are playing now - not your best period a couple of years ago. If you cannot play to your UHS handicap now and keep going up by 0.1 surely it should be reset to a more realistic level?

I am not making any point. I asked if there was any cap on the amount a current handicap can go up (or down) when Handicap Index is calculated. My scoring over the last 20 rounds - or indeed since 2018 - has been haphazard as much of the time I have been trying out new things - and as a result my scoring has often been very rubbish. However because of the way the current h/c system works I have managed to maintain my handicap at 8 (currently it has slipped up to 8.6 so it's 9).

Now - I have just looked online at my last 20 scores - and the average of my best 8 from last 20 is ...exactly 9.0 over gross against par 72...

I would never, ever have guessed that,

 

[mikejohnchapman]

Although a hard and soft cap looks back 1 year into the past, that handicap 1 year in the past would have had to be worked out based on scores before that.

So, a player has played 20 rounds since 2nd November 2019 (or just a bit before, depending on when Indexes will actually be set). Played terrible (most of rounds may have been played back end of this year due to winter and then lockdown). Their Index comes out as 25. Their CONGU handicap is 10.

However, had the 20 scores been taken before November 2019, their Index may have come out as 8.0 on the date of 2nd November 2019. So, despite having a terrible 2019, their Index calculated on 2nd November 2020 would be 13.0, not 25.0, due to hard cap.

OK we are going to have to disagree on this one i'm afraid.

If the new system spits out a 25 HI for a Cat 2 player I don't need a hard cap to show this needs looking at in detail.

If they have played 20 QUALIFYING rounds since November I suspect the majority will be post-lockdown when conditions were good. Yes some may have been impacted by bad weather but they would be part of the 12 not the 8!

I can only see 2 reasons you would get such an extreme result; injury or manipulation - in both cases it would need to be reviewed by the HC anyway.

 

[Swango1980]

OK we are going to have to disagree on this one i'm afraid.

If the new system spits out a 25 HI for a Cat 2 player I don't need a hard cap to show this needs looking at in detail.

If they have played 20 QUALIFYING rounds since November I suspect the majority will be post-lockdown when conditions were good. Yes some may have been impacted by bad weather but they would be part of the 12 not the 8!

I can only see 2 reasons you would get such an extreme result; injury or manipulation - in both cases it would need to be reviewed by the HC anyway.

It would. However, you could say that about the WHS at any stage. If a low handicapper ended up having their handicap quickly going up an extra 10 shots or so, the handicap committee would need to review it, without the need of the soft and hard caps being used.

So, if you are purely going to rely on handicap committees to spot any handicaps going up too rapidly and taking action, what is the point in having a soft and hard cap at all? When we get our first WHS handicaps, they might as well be calculated as closely as possible to the way they'd be calculated at any point in the future. And that includes the soft and hard caps.

 

[Bdill93]

It would. However, you could say that about the WHS at any stage. If a low handicapper ended up having their handicap quickly going up an extra 10 shots or so, the handicap committee would need to review it, without the need of the soft and hard caps being used.

So, if you are purely going to rely on handicap committees to spot any handicaps going up too rapidly and taking action, what is the point in having a soft and hard cap at all? When we get our first WHS handicaps, they might as well be calculated as closely as possible to the way they'd be calculated at any point in the future. And that includes the soft and hard caps.

Listen to the rick shiels podcast WHS episode. It makes all these things really clear.

Some players dont record 20+ rounds a year, let alone in a few months, the two year history enables the occasional club player to still have an accurate account of his handicap when he does play.

Handicaps will be "high capped" so that you cannot deviate too far (negatively) in 12 months from your handicap index. I believe it can only go up by 5 shots max - I may have misremembered this but I'm confident I havent. (eg/ I play off 19 currently, my current poor run of form may increase me up to 24 but no higher for the next 12 months).

 

[Bdill93]

Listen to the rick shiels podcast WHS episode. It makes all these things really clear.

Some players dont record 20+ rounds a year, let along in a few months, the two year history enables the occasional club player to still have an accurate account of his handicap when he does play.

Handicaps will be "high capped" so that you cannot deviate too far (negatively) in 12 months from your handicap index. I believe it can only go up by 5 shots max - I may have misremembered this but I'm confident I havent. (eg/ I play off 19 currently, my current poor run of form may increase me up to 24 but no higher for the next 12 months).

Ill add - I may have quoted the wrong person here - sorry mate!