World Handicap System (WHS)

[rulefan]

Quite simple . If you course rating - par of a 74 you get 2 knowing that course is 2 harder than par .. a 69-72 is -3 so is 3 easier than par.

But par tells you nothing about difficulty. It is simply the sum of arbritary values given to individual holes. It doesn't tell you what a good or poor player should score. That is done by the CR.
Adding apples to oranges doesn't give more oranges.
Further, your overall playing performance (ie Index) is measured against the Course Ratings of courses you have played, not on the pars of those courses.

without +(CR-Par)
CR = 74 Par = 72. CH = is (say) 10

with +(CR-Par)
CR = 74 Par = 72. CH = is now 12

You score 82 gross. Which score would produce the lower differential?

 

[PJ87]

But par tells you nothing about difficulty. It is simply the sum of arbritary values given to individual holes. It doesn't tell you what a good or poor player should score. That is done by the CR.
Adding apples to oranges doesn't give more oranges.
Further, your overall playing performance (ie Index) is measured against the Course Ratings of courses you have played, not on the pars of those courses.

without +(CR-Par)
CR = 74 Par = 72. CH = is (say) 10

with +(CR-Par)
CR = 74 Par = 72. CH = is now 12

You score 82 gross. Which score would produce the lower differential?

We have been through this previous and you stated at course a (Cr 74) level is 34 points and course b (Cr 69) level would be 39

However as I stated than and I stand by. Whs should have been used to make the player score 36 more. Ie at course a give you more shots to achieve that and at course b give you less shots to achieve 36.

We have applied it backwards IMO.

Considering 90% of golfers think 36 is "level" and as you have said previously measure themsleves against that and not sss in the old days .. it would have made it less confusing to follow the whs elsewhere where it would bring it to 36 as level.

In your opinion its easy to follow and that level is what you should aim for but I can guarantee outside this forum (and other golf forums) very little people understand fully how the new or old system worked with sss and level

So making golf simplier should have been the aim not making it the same .

 

[Green Man]

We have been through this previous and you stated at course a (Cr 74) level is 34 points and course b (Cr 69) level would be 39

However as I stated than and I stand by. Whs should have been used to make the player score 36 more. Ie at course a give you more shots to achieve that and at course b give you less shots to achieve 36.

We have applied it backwards IMO.

Considering 90% of golfers think 36 is "level" and as you have said previously measure themsleves against that and not sss in the old days .. it would have made it less confusing to follow the whs elsewhere where it would bring it to 36 as level.

In your opinion its easy to follow and that level is what you should aim for but I can guarantee outside this forum (and other golf forums) very little people understand fully how the new or old system worked with sss and level

So making golf simplier should have been the aim not making it the same .

I couldn’t agree more with this. The way the system is currently confuses 90+% of golfers. You have a situation now where you have index, course cap then playing cap. You play in a Comp to your playing cap but then have to think about your course cap when playing so that you don’t pick up too early.

 

[PJ87]

I couldn’t agree more with this. The way the system is currently confuses 90+% of golfers. You have a situation now where you have index, course cap then playing cap. You play in a Comp to your playing cap but then have to think about your course cap when playing so that you don’t pick up too early.

I wish I had never looked into it

Play dumb

Put down your score and let the pc do the work

Having an understanding has made it more confusing

It's like opening the eyes to the matrix

Wish I'd taken the blue pill

You take the blue pill...the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill...you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes

 

[Yorkshire Hacker]

I agree completely. Now imagine introducing a newcomer to the game. Not necessarily a youngster who's computer literate, but say a 50year old, who may be fairly up to speed. They would be saying, "I just want to hit some balls, not mess about with CR, CH, HI etc."
Who on earth designed a system that is almost guaranteed to put new players (and quite a few old players from what I've heard) off the game?
I feel as though we are disappearing down a dark hole with WHS.
This is page 104, and if it wasn't for rulefan and a few others, I wouldn't have a clue what's going on.
In addition, my whs platform has all our comps off the yellows, I'm still waiting to see the correction to whites.
It's a right old mess, which CSS and SSS catered for in the past. All I do understand out of the new system (thanks to rulefan), is that a course par is merely an addition of arbitrary values. That I understand. BUT, it WAS the same for everyone, and I used to accept that getting 30 points round Lytham St Anne's was pretty good, and 30 points round Skipton wasn't so special.

 

[jim8flog]

Quite simple . If you course rating - par of a 74 you get 2 knowing that course is 2 harder than par .. a 69-72 is -3 so is 3 easier than par.

One of things you have to remember that the par for a hole can be set by the golf club within a wide range of parameters so an identical hole on two different courses may have different pars depending on how a particular committee sees it.

We have one hole on our course where the par has varied between 4 and 5 like a yoyo as the committee members have changed.

 

[jim8flog]

Do you actually know one person in real life who has been "put off the game" ?
Really?

It's very easy to explain, we have a Handicap Index, this gets adjusted depending on the difficulty of the course, then we get a certain allowance depending on the format.
How on earth would that very simple explanation "put someone off the game"???

The implementation and transferring the data has obviously been horrendous, but that's separate to how it works.

When we started to put out all the information about the WHS apparently the Club Manager received several complaints about our club introducing it and they intended to resign from the club when it was in force and join another club which was not doing it.

 

[rosecott]

When we started to put out all the information about the WHS apparently the Club Manager received several complaints about our club introducing it and they intended to resign from the club when it was in force and join another club which was not doing it.

Where is he now, I wonder?

 

[Deleted member 3432]

One of things you have to remember that the par for a hole can be set by the golf club within a wide range of parameters so an identical hole on two different courses may have different pars depending on how a particular committee sees it.

We have one hole on our course where the par has varied between 4 and 5 like a yoyo as the committee members have changed.

If golfers under the old system never understood Sss/css and the relationship or lack of it to par they were never going to understand WHS with CR/HI/SR/BR and 95% allowance....

 

[Yorkshire Hacker]

When we started to put out all the information about the WHS apparently the Club Manager received several complaints about our club introducing it and they intended to resign from the club when it was in force and join another club which was not doing it.

Traminator, I refer to jim8flog's post.
Yes, I DO know of people who have been put off wanting to play in competitions, they just want to play non competitive golf.
I actually wish to continue, and hope things settle down. However, I don't want to trawl through the 104 pages in order to back up my argument, but there have been numerous posts from forum members who are less than impressed, and find it all unecessary.
It's when you hear of a 54 handicapper who is going to play off 60+ that I become somewhat flustered.
The theory that a 12 handicapper may not be a 12 handicapper at another course doesn't really wash with me, but "hey ho", it's here now.
I wonder if we will be discussing this in a year's time when (in theory, and here's hoping) things have settled down.

 

[Junior]

Sorry if this has been covered / asked before.

Can a player declare a general play round for handicap purposes (obviously before he tees off) at an away course ?

 

[Swango1980]

How does CR-Par show that a course is easier or harder?
A high or low par tells you nothing and is entirely arbitrary. It doesn't even tell you the length of the course.

Rulefan, I think you are missing the point here. I never said Par tells you how difficult the course is. I completely agree it is course rating.

However, when regular golfers play the game, who do not study how the handicap system works, the vast majority compare their score to par, or 36 points in Stableford. That is indisputable, whether one likes it or not.

If CR-Par was taken into account, this would account for BOTH Course Rating (difficulty of course) AND Par (whatever value was set by those setting up the course). So, courses with high course ratings ratings relative to par a golfer would get more shots on their course handicap, and vice versa.

This would make sense to the vast majority of golfers, and how it is done in other countries. We decided not to do it, because I'm assuming the UK know better?

 

[Old Skier]

Sorry if this has been covered / asked before.

Can a player declare a general play round for handicap purposes (obviously before he tees off) at an away course ?

Yes

 

[Foxholer]

...

I suspect golf England's reason is complete rubbish made up to support a decision that's been made rashly .. if it's a world handicap system it should be done the same full stop.

We have decided to be different for whatever reason and just adds a layer of confusion not needed

When I raised the point on FB group I got shouted down that it's world handcap clue is in name it's all same

Until I provided the evidence that it's different for us

Suddenly two people changed tune the rest sloped back into the shadows

It's a World-wide applicable Handixcap system. It contained options that each country could decide whether to implement or not - and CR-Par was one of those. US and France decided to use CR-Par; UK didn't.
The 'inventor' of the Slope system, Dean Knuth, is an advocate of simply using CR - which is at odds with the US implementation! FWIW, I can see advantages in both methods, but consider the (CR only) as slightly 'purer'!

To me, it doesn't matter which system is used. If you are playing a course in UK even with/against folks from France and/or US (and any other country that, you both/all use your indices with the UK calculation; if playing the same folk in US, you all use your indices in their calculation.

 

[Junior]

Yes

Thanks. Can the scores be input anywhere on the EG app? or, does the card have to go back to the home club to be processed?

 

[rulefan]

One of things you have to remember that the par for a hole can be set by the golf club within a wide range of parameters so an identical hole on two different courses may have different pars depending on how a particular committee sees it.

That's exactly my point
It can be as much as 40 yards on each hole. So a course could be 720 yards longer and still have the same par. A rough calculation suggests that a scratch player could need more than 3 strokes to play to par.

 

[Foxholer]

That's exactly my point
It can be as much as 40 yards on each hole. So a course could be 720 yards longer and still have the same par. A rough calculation suggests that a scratch player could need more than 3 strokes to play to par.

It's highly unlikely to do so though! Do you know of ANY that are anywhere near (2/3rds+) that extra distance? Much more likely are the quite old ones (often in Scotland) that have had no room to extend, normally because housing has been the priority in the area and has 'surrounded' them! Quite a few Par 71/72s that were SSS of 68-ish - and prob a CR of that now too.
Most (relatively) newer courses had SSS (so probably CR) within 1 shot below to 2 or 3 above Par. It's a high Slope value that tends to distinguish the courses defined as 'tough' imo - reflecting the concept of why the system was devised (imo).

 

[mikejohnchapman]

Thanks. Can the scores be input anywhere on the EG app? or, does the card have to go back to the home club to be processed?

Currently it will have to be returned to the club but the intention is for it to be registered and scored at the course on which it is played to ensure the PCC gets calculated correctly. The ISVs need to update their software to allow this.

 

[3offTheTee]

Downloaded The EG app on my Ipad and everything is good. Shows HI and when I go to Course it shows all the details off white yellow etc and what my course handicap is.

Have done same on my phone Samsung via android and it shows HI And ONLY Men’s white and yellow Par71 then a large 2 to the right but no other information.

Uninstalled and installed again but no change.

Any help would be appreciated

 

[PJ87]

Currently it will have to be returned to the club but the intention is for it to be registered and scored at the course on which it is played to ensure the PCC gets calculated correctly. The ISVs need to update their software to allow this.

How does this work ATM

Do you hand in the card at your home course or at the course played

Who has to mark it? A member or anyone