World Handicap System (WHS)

[Yorkshire Hacker]

I'm probably wrong on this, (fairly frequent occurrence), but if we delve back over 100 pages on this thread, wasn't it being stated that EVERY round would count under WHS rules?
This was much to the chagrin of many of the casual golfers who entered in "roll ups". So what has changed?

 

[Imurg]

I'm probably wrong on this, (fairly frequent occurrence), but if we delve back over 100 pages on this thread, wasn't it being stated that EVERY round would count under WHS rules?
This was much to the chagrin of many of the casual golfers who entered in "roll ups". So what has changed?

Every round CAN be used - T&Cs apply.

 

[sweaty sock]

I heard a rumour that scratch golfers wont be able to hand in cards unless from competition golf? Is this a regional variation or does this come under some elite golfer stipulation

 

[Deleted member 15717]

I heard a rumour that scratch golfers wont be able to hand in cards unless from competition golf? Is this a regional variation or does this come under some elite golfer stipulation

false.

 

[Swango1980]

Every round CAN be used - T&Cs apply.

This statement is only true if your T&Cs state every round CANNOT be used. For example, match play cannot be used.

 

[Swango1980]

I'll tell the Sec to go and stand in the corner.

At least we now have this more clearly defined so you can go in the pro-shop and ask to pre-register and have the assistant look at you blankly and say "eh?"

I don't criticise the individual golfer for handing in good cards, as they are probably not aware of the implications. Therefore, to them, they are doing the honourable thing. But, I criticise the handicap secretary who allows this to happen, as they should be more informed. This was explicitly stated in the CONGU manual.

I'm also with you in pre-registration under WHS. Unless there is a robust method that can be implemented consistently, regardless of whether you are playing at your home course or not, I can see it being really difficult in any club official being fairly certain pre-registration has happened or not. I also don't see why golfers can't just sit at home and enter a score without ever playing, and that updating their handicap for the next day (at least before, their score had to be signed off by a club official before being added to their handicap record). There is a lot about general golf rounds that makes me a little nervous as a handicap secretary.

 

[IanM]

I'm also with you in pre-registration under WHS. Unless there is a robust method that can be implemented consistently, regardless of whether you are playing at your home course or not, I can see it being really difficult in any club official being fairly certain pre-registration has happened or not

Yep... I missed a trick yesterday. Went down to Machynys with a pro and some serious golfers. I should have asked if I can pre-register... wonder what would have happened? At my Club, Nov-Feb we have no qualifiers at all... wonder what would happen if I asked them to record my card from the "Saturday Swindle?" I genuinely have no idea what the response would be.

Maybe my views are out of line with the "official thinking" but I've always drawn a clear line between competitions and "other golf." EG.. on a day out with the pro and some mates, fivers in the hat - absolutely no intention (or requirement in my view) to be putting a card in. Eg when is a someone it a foot from the hole, knock it back to them. I'm at my laptop all week working, this is recreation.

Saturday morning at the club, and Open comps etc "different gravy." Full rules, cards and pencils. No confusion.

 

[patricks148]

No scores over this winter for us, had an email this morning saying that no qual scores as we would now be on a an unrated course, even though we are off the blue tee??

 

[Swango1980]

Yep... I missed a trick yesterday. Went down to Machynys with a pro and some serious golfers. I should have asked if I can pre-register... wonder what would have happened? At my Club, Nov-Feb we have no qualifiers at all... wonder what would happen if I asked them to record my card from the "Saturday Swindle?" I genuinely have no idea what the response would be.

Maybe my views are out of line with the "official thinking" but I've always drawn a clear line between competitions and "other golf." EG.. on a day out with the pro and some mates, fivers in the hat - absolutely no intention (or requirement in my view) to be putting a card in. Eg when is a someone it a foot from the hole, knock it back to them. I'm at my laptop all week working, this is recreation.

Saturday morning at the club, and Open comps etc "different gravy." Full rules, cards and pencils. No confusion.

I agree with this to a large extent, I always felt handicaps are most important in an official competition when the pressure is on, and prizes are at stake. Playing in a social round is massively different to many from a mental standpoint, and golf has a lot do do with a players mental state. By allowing social rounds to be entered, it can have a number of issues. A player who panics when the pressure is on, may get a much lower handicap because their social rounds are knocking it down, only to do even worse in competitions. Or, a player who really focuses and dials in during competitions, may be subconsciously less motivated during casual golf, and maybe try some risky things for practice they would never dream of in an official competition. Their casual golf may push their handicap upwards, and they get a real benefit in competitive golf.

Also, who wants to go out on a Friday with their mate, submit a fantastic round for a big handicap cut, only to be a few shots worse off for an official competition on a Saturday? I appreciate some have the respectable goal of simply getting as low a handicap as possible. But, the whole point in having a handicap is to be competitive against other golfers. So, many would rather be rewarded in having handicap cuts when they do well under pressure, rather than during a round that no one really cares about.

That aside, the above only really applies to those that play a decent number of competitions. General Play rounds are good for those that don't play many comps. So, I still expect quite a few will start entering these compared to previously, due to there being less restrictions and the technology making it easier, at least for your home course for now.

 

[Old Skier]

Did you just try because you wanted to test the new system?

In reality it will be a tiny number even thinking about doing this, normally an awayday is just a bit of fun if it's not a comp.

I’m going to do it next week to see how the system works with a few of the lads. Relatively easy for me as I have spoken to the club I’m going to and they know I’m a HC Sec.

Something I’m looking at is for the visited club should initial/sign cards prior to going out.

 

[sweaty sock]

Theres still a bit to run in this isnt there.


I cant be the only one whos disheartened.

I agree with this to a large extent, I always felt handicaps are most important in an official competition when the pressure is on, and prizes are at stake. Playing in a social round is massively different to many from a mental standpoint, and golf has a lot do do with a players mental state. By allowing social rounds to be entered, it can have a number of issues. A player who panics when the pressure is on, may get a much lower handicap because their social rounds are knocking it down, only to do even worse in competitions. Or, a player who really focuses and dials in during competitions, may be subconsciously less motivated during casual golf, and maybe try some risky things for practice they would never dream of in an official competition. Their casual golf may push their handicap upwards, and they get a real benefit in competitive golf.

Also, who wants to go out on a Friday with their mate, submit a fantastic round for a big handicap cut, only to be a few shots worse off for an official competition on a Saturday? I appreciate some have the respectable goal of simply getting as low a handicap as possible. But, the whole point in having a handicap is to be competitive against other golfers. So, many would rather be rewarded in having handicap cuts when they do well under pressure, rather than during a round that no one really cares about.

That aside, the above only really applies to those that play a decent number of competitions. General Play rounds are good for those that don't play many comps. So, I still expect quite a few will start entering these compared to previously, due to there being less restrictions and the technology making it easier, at least for your home course for now.

This gets at the point of the whs, and its main failings....

It was billed as the play anywhere against anybody. But what it actually is, is a system that enables everyone to maintain a handicap, no matter what form or style of golf they play.

So now every single player can have and maintain their handicap.

What it fails to do, is make any attempt to make those handicaps compatible or comparable. Even between players at the same club.

Misses the mark for me

 

[Yorkshire Hacker]

Theres still a bit to run in this isnt there.


I cant be the only one whos disheartened.



This gets at the point of the whs, and its main failings....

It was billed as the play anywhere against anybody. But what it actually is, is a system that enables everyone to maintain a handicap, no matter what form or style of golf they play.

So now every single player can have and maintain their handicap.

What it fails to do, is make any attempt to make those handicaps compatible or comparable. Even between players at the same club.

Misses the mark for me

Hooray, someone who is on the same wavelength as me!! Thank you sweatysock!!

 

[sunshine]

It was never expected to be exactly the same all over the world. The original USGA and R&A announcements made that clear.
eg Scotland has decided to use the unrounded CH in calculating the PH. England, Wales & Ireland have chosen to use the rounded figure.

That statement is crazy. Why have a WORLD handicapping system if it's different in every country? Sounds moronic.

 

[sunshine]

One of things you have to remember that the par for a hole can be set by the golf club within a wide range of parameters so an identical hole on two different courses may have different pars depending on how a particular committee sees it.

We have one hole on our course where the par has varied between 4 and 5 like a yoyo as the committee members have changed.

Exactly! So this hole is a tough par 4 or an easy par 5?

 

[sunshine]

But par tells you nothing about difficulty. It is simply the sum of arbritary values given to individual holes. It doesn't tell you what a good or poor player should score. That is done by the CR.
Adding apples to oranges doesn't give more oranges.
Further, your overall playing performance (ie Index) is measured against the Course Ratings of courses you have played, not on the pars of those courses.

without +(CR-Par)
CR = 74 Par = 72. CH = is (say) 10

with +(CR-Par)
CR = 74 Par = 72. CH = is now 12

You score 82 gross. Which score would produce the lower differential?

Back to this old chestnut.

For someone who has such encylopaedic knowledge of the game and the rules (and by the way I really appreciate your informed contributions on this forum!), I really don't understand how you ignore the concept of par.

Par has a meaning. It is the expected number of shots that a "good" player should take to complete a hole. Par has been around a lot longer than CR or SSS and it means a lot more in the game than those technical abbreviations.

There is some subjectivity in par. Some holes it's easier to achieve par than others. That's why some courses are easier than others. People measure their score against par so a round of 5 over par (for example) is a better score on a tough course than an easy course.

 

[IanM]

Exactly! So this hole is a tough par 4 or an easy par 5?

Precisely ..Eg 18th at Newport. Easy par 5 (stroke index 17) - would make a cracking tough par 4. Mind you, the long hitters think it is!

 

[Swango1980]

Back to this old chestnut.

For someone who has such encylopaedic knowledge of the game and the rules (and by the way I really appreciate your informed contributions on this forum!), I really don't understand how you ignore the concept of par.

Par has a meaning. It is the expected number of shots that a "good" player should take to complete a hole. Par has been around a lot longer than CR or SSS and it means a lot more in the game than those technical abbreviations.

There is some subjectivity in par. Some holes it's easier to achieve par than others. That's why some courses are easier than others. People measure their score against par so a round of 5 over par (for example) is a better score on a tough course than an easy course.

Although I understand Rulefans statement regarding CR and Par, I don't think it is relevant to the original point that he was responding to. I also agree with sunshine, that Par has a meaning to probably 99% of golfers and no doubt the majority will compare their score to par, and will have no concept of CR just like they had no concept of SSS/CSS.

The main argument was, why wasn't CR-Par included in the UK, unlike other countries? I know England Golf had reasons to give, but overall I think it just confuses golfers when simply think their handicaps should change based on the absolute difficulty of the course, and they struggle more to visualise relative difficulty. My course is an easy example, where whites are definitely harder than yellows, with CR being 2.6 shots higher on whites. However, the slope on whites is 133 compared to 130 on yellows, so by and large golfers have the same course handicap on both courses, or perhaps 1 more shot on the whites depending on rounding. This is a puzzling concept to many, and many will automatically think the Slope is wrong and should be much higher on whites (it is not inconceivable that the slope on whites could actually be lower than yellows, despite having a higher course rating).

However, CR-Par would eliminate this issue. Course A, Par=72, CR=69, Slope = 130. Course B, Par=72, CR=75, Slope=130

Currently in UK, a 0 Indexer plays off 0 on both courses. If CR-Par used, a 0 Indexer plays off -3 at Course A, and off 3 at Course B. That is so much easier to understand.

My Course, Yellows Par=70, CR=66.8, Slope=130. Whites Par=70, CR=69.4, Slope=133

My Index is 8.7, so my Course Handicap is 10 off both yellows and whites. If CR-Par was used, I would have a course handicap of 6.8 (7) off yellows, and a course handicap of 9.6 (10) off whites. To me, that makes entirely more sense to most golfers, as it takes into account BOTH the absolute difficulty of the course and the RELATIVE difficulty for low and high handicappers. Golfers no longer need to evaluate their nett score to the CR when determining how they played relative to handicap, they can compare to par / 36 points.

 

[sunshine]

Precisely ..Eg 18th at Newport. Easy par 5 (stroke index 17) - would make a cracking tough par 4. Mind you, the long hitters think it is!

I often hear the commentators on tour say that this long par 4 plays as a par 5 for the members (e.g. 1st at Wentworth). There is a really good reason why they do this, par has a meaning!

 

[Swango1980]

Can someone tell me off the top of their head what DJ's winning score was in the Masters?

-20

 

[jim8flog]

Exactly! So this hole is a tough par 4 or an easy par 5?

It very much depends on daily weather circumstances and time of the year. I have played it as 3 iron off the tee and wedge in to the green similarly I have played it as driver, 3 wood and mid/short iron.

Has been a par 4 for some years now. It is stroke 1 (difficulty) and the times I shoot par on it these days would be around 5%-10% of rounds.