Women’s professional golf - does anyone care?

[Deleted member 16999]

Looking at the schedule for the LET it seems strange (at least to me) to why there are so many events so far away https://ladieseuropeantour.com/schedule-page/. Hardly helpful to emerging players on a tight budget, probably with little sponsorship to travel to Morocco, Thailand etc to chase limited purses. Surely the costs versus the money earned isn't going to stack up. Also hardly ideal for engaging with a target audience in the UK and Europe. Now I'm all for growing the game globally and we all recognise the LET is on its knees but this schedule to me reeks of a desperate gamble by the tour to grab overseas sponsor money in a bid to keep the tour afloat and indicates just how little European interest there is from sponsors. Of course that B word dominating the news is a big factor and no-one knows how things will pan out but it seems most players have to wait until July-September to get any sort of playing momentum and make their cash.

I'd like to see a few more co-sanctioned events at the same places as the mens tour (maybe have the ladies event the weekend before) or even on the Monday-Wednesday in the run up to the mens event. Anything that could piggy back on the mens tour and generate any kind of interest from media (although I'm sure Sky and ET productions would cover the ladies event) and sponsors.

The LET needs to stand on its own merit, the talent is their and they need to sell it and support it.
It’s not practical to host a Ladies Event or a Mens Event immediately before or after each other, the greenkeepers work their backsides off to get a course in top condition for one event, who gets the priority?
What if there were weather delays? Sky/TV production crews will often finish on a sunday night and then drive/travel hundreds/thousands of miles with equipment to set the OB up, they don’t have the time, staff or equipment to manage a joint schedule.

The LET needs to take a good hard look at itself and decide what it wants.

Just checked Sky and unless they mention Womens Golf in the weekly round up there is absolutely no Womens Golf being shown of any description, but, you can watch The Trilby 2’s and the Trilby International or re-runs from 1982.
The LET need to market themselves better and force media exposure.
It seems people want everyone else to sort their problem out.
England Golf are running a lot of good initiatives to get more females into golf, but that’s were it ends.

 

[Parsaregood]

Women's golf for me isn't great to watch on tv, they arnt on the same level of performance and skill as the men, i wouldn't watch challenge tour or euro pro tour golf so why would I watch the ladies when that's not even on that level. Don't get me wrong I find a few of the younger ones good fun, good personalities and great ambassadors for ladies golf when I watch clips on YouTube or see the odd bit on tv but I couldn't watch it as I do the men as I find it pretty boring if I'm honest.

 

[Grant85]

Your initial post suggested that “England”’as a country failed to support golf over the past decade - so that’s 2008 to 2018 - why are you going back to 2002 ?

In 2008 there were 2 Pro comps in England - the European Open at the London Club and the PGA - Scotland had three - so over that decade you suggest England have gone from two Pro comps to three last year where as Scotland have gone from three to 2

But going back to 2002 -

The Benson and Hedges suffered the minute tobacco advertising was banned

The Masters lost its sponsor until 4 years ago when it was back

The English Open lost its place when the European Tour wanted to extend the tour outside the boundaries of Europe

The Great North Open last a total of 5/6 years being started during the 90’s boom

I see in 2002 there was also a Scottish PGA that is no longer being played

Scotland has the Scottish Open which helps being played the week before The Open so players use it to help prepare or for some as a last minute qualifying chance and the Dunhill supported by big money from celebs which brings in the Sponsership

You decided to point a finger at England not backing golf - its very generic and you seem to think because London or England has wealth they should do more ? Maybe before pointing fingers look around

Let’s look at the health of Scottish Golf

Where are the top players ? The two highest both mainly through the US System - no real main Scottish Golf star since Monty left , in the Ladies it’s even worse with Matthew being the highest ranked at 185

It’s quite easy to point fingers of accusations but England Golf it appears is doing well

But in regards tournaments- timing and sponsorship will always be key , find a sponsor and a Comp will be hosted - but it’s always going to be hard to get a sponsor in the UK whether that be England , Scotland , Wales or Ireland

Definitely a clear difference in category of elite golfers and number of Pro events.

English golf is clearly going through a purple patch as far as elite players are concerned. Not sure if that is down to any one thing - coaching at club level, funding for youngsters being targeted correctly, competitive environments for youngsters etc etc. Likely a combination of most of these.

Scottish golf is not and probably the things that English golf are doing well, is simply a decade or more behind in Scotland and results have been very very poor in terms of developing elite talent in this country.

Tournament golf is more of a fragile eco system. Given the number of golf fans and interest in the sport, it is more of a concern why more tournaments are seemingly not commercially viable in England. Nothing to do with English golf, the players or fans.

The public certainly support them as well, if not better, than in other countries. And I think it is just the reality of the situation that you need a big TV audience and a sponsor basically willing to bank roll a whole event. Ticket sales and on course sales are basically window dressing. The tour simply can't risk £3M to £4M in prize money and probably the same again in staff and infrastructure on the hope that the sun will shine and 20,000 people will turn up every day and buy beers at £6 a pint.

Scotland has a unique position that given the history and the courses available, there are 2 or 3 big events on Scottish soil each year. However the attendances are not what they are in England or Ireland for similar calibre events. Still decent given the population base, but certainly 'tickets available on the day' in most cases.

 

[Jacko_G]

The LET needs to stand on its own merit, the talent is their and they need to sell it and support it.
It’s not practical to host a Ladies Event or a Mens Event immediately before or after each other, the greenkeepers work their backsides off to get a course in top condition for one event, who gets the priority?
What if there were weather delays? Sky/TV production crews will often finish on a sunday night and then drive/travel hundreds/thousands of miles with equipment to set the OB up, they don’t have the time, staff or equipment to manage a joint schedule.

The LET needs to take a good hard look at itself and decide what it wants.

Just checked Sky and unless they mention Womens Golf in the weekly round up there is absolutely no Womens Golf being shown of any description, but, you can watch The Trilby 2’s and the Trilby International or re-runs from 1982.
The LET need to market themselves better and force media exposure.
It seems people want everyone else to sort their problem out.
England Golf are running a lot of good initiatives to get more females into golf, but that’s were it ends.

I don't think they have the finances to market themselves and attract more finance/sponsorship. I sadly don't see it surviving in its current form and I don't think the LPGA tour will be interested in bailing them out or assisting them.

 

[Jacko_G]

Definitely a clear difference in category of elite golfers and number of Pro events.

English golf is clearly going through a purple patch as far as elite players are concerned. Not sure if that is down to any one thing - coaching at club level, funding for youngsters being targeted correctly, competitive environments for youngsters etc etc. Likely a combination of most of these.

Scottish golf is not and probably the things that English golf are doing well, is simply a decade or more behind in Scotland and results have been very very poor in terms of developing elite talent in this country.

Tournament golf is more of a fragile eco system. Given the number of golf fans and interest in the sport, it is more of a concern why more tournaments are seemingly not commercially viable in England. Nothing to do with English golf, the players or fans.

The public certainly support them as well, if not better, than in other countries. And I think it is just the reality of the situation that you need a big TV audience and a sponsor basically willing to bank roll a whole event. Ticket sales and on course sales are basically window dressing. The tour simply can't risk £3M to £4M in prize money and probably the same again in staff and infrastructure on the hope that the sun will shine and 20,000 people will turn up every day and buy beers at £6 a pint.

Scotland has a unique position that given the history and the courses available, there are 2 or 3 big events on Scottish soil each year. However the attendances are not what they are in England or Ireland for similar calibre events. Still decent given the population base, but certainly 'tickets available on the day' in most cases.

No point in answering that part Grant, that was only somebody trying to point score as he can't see past the fact that sponsorship has fallen from the European Tour in England resulting in several events falling by the way side.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

I don't think they have the finances to market themselves and attract more finance/sponsorship. I sadly don't see it surviving in its current form and I don't think the LPGA tour will be interested in bailing them out or assisting them.

Maybe it’s their prices and greed? Are they wanting top money for the product?
Like I asked yesterday, why aren’t we already getting bombarded with Solheim Cup stuff.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

You really are clueless.

Insular to the core my friend. Bring back the crusades eh!

I’m insular ! Coming from you ? Do you need reminding who was the first to start pointing fingers at another country - that be you craw

And then to get your dates all a bit mixed up - so were you supposed to say “last 20 years” as you went past 2008 to 2002

But we will work of your initial post

The Last ten years where you accused “England” of not supported golf

England have gone from 2 events to 3 events last year ( rumoured that there might be four this year )

Scotland have gone from 3 to 2

Wales from 1 to 0

Ireland from 1 to 1

So actually over the last ten years England have increased supposed for golf , Scotland and Wales have decreased - Ireland stayed the same

 

[Jacko_G]

I’m insular ! Coming from you ? Do you need reminding who was the first to start pointing fingers at another country - that be you craw

And then to get your dates all a bit mixed up - so were you supposed to say “last 20 years” as you went past 2008 to 2002

But we will work of your initial post

The Last ten years where you accused “England” of not supported golf

England have gone from 2 events to 3 events last year ( rumoured that there might be four this year )

Scotland have gone from 3 to 2

Wales from 1 to 0

Ireland from 1 to 1

So actually over the last ten years England have increased supposed for golf , Scotland and Wales have decreased - Ireland stayed the same

Not sure you are correct (once again) as far as I am aware England only hosted the PGA and the British Masters.

 

[Jacko_G]

I’m insular ! Coming from you ? Do you need reminding who was the first to start pointing fingers at another country - that be you craw

And then to get your dates all a bit mixed up - so were you supposed to say “last 20 years” as you went past 2008 to 2002

But we will work of your initial post

The Last ten years where you accused “England” of not supported golf

England have gone from 2 events to 3 events last year ( rumoured that there might be four this year )

Scotland have gone from 3 to 2

Wales from 1 to 0

Ireland from 1 to 1

So actually over the last ten years England have increased supposed for golf , Scotland and Wales have decreased - Ireland stayed the same

Also I never pointed the finger I made a comparison and you decided to interpret it as such, lets clear that bit up right now.

 

[Jacko_G]

Maybe it’s their prices and greed? Are they wanting top money for the product?
Like I asked yesterday, why aren’t we already getting bombarded with Solheim Cup stuff.

Just don't think the global appeal is there to be honest.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Definitely a clear difference in category of elite golfers and number of Pro events.

English golf is clearly going through a purple patch as far as elite players are concerned. Not sure if that is down to any one thing - coaching at club level, funding for youngsters being targeted correctly, competitive environments for youngsters etc etc. Likely a combination of most of these.

In my time there has always been top English golfers coming through and someone in and around the top echelons of the sport - at times it was a small amount and currently it’s increased to a decent amount of golfers - it will be a combination of everything

Scottish golf is not and probably the things that English golf are doing well, is simply a decade or more behind in Scotland and results have been very very poor in terms of developing elite talent in this country.

Tournament golf is more of a fragile eco system. Given the number of golf fans and interest in the sport, it is more of a concern why more tournaments are seemingly not commercially viable in England. Nothing to do with English golf, the players or fans.

This is came from a very generic statement that “England has poorly supported the men’s game in the last ten years “ -

For me it’s down to the European Tour and also the PGA tour - during the summer months most players are tailoring their schedule to the majors - that’s what helps the Scottish Open - it’s a last minute qualifier for the Open and also prep for The Open. The European Tour have also chased the money to get the better players - the Middle East and China.

Golf in England is prob best middle months of the summer - but there you have the players looking for a schedule for the Majors plus the European Tour added in Rolex to things like the French , Irish and Scottish Open

And then look at the gaps in the schedule - it’s hard to see where you could put in a Comp in England right now

The public certainly support them as well, if not better, than in other countries. And I think it is just the reality of the situation that you need a big TV audience and a sponsor basically willing to bank roll a whole event. Ticket sales and on course sales are basically window dressing. The tour simply can't risk £3M to £4M in prize money and probably the same again in staff and infrastructure on the hope that the sun will shine and 20,000 people will turn up every day and buy beers at £6 a pint.

Scotland has a unique position that given the history and the courses available, there are 2 or 3 big events on Scottish soil each year. However the attendances are not what they are in England or Ireland for similar calibre events. Still decent given the population base, but certainly 'tickets available on the day' in most cases.

The Scottish Open works because of when it is - if you changed that to an English Open on a Links course then it would be even more successful , same if you moved the Dunhill Links - they both work well

The European Tour is a global tour - last year the Uk hosted 6 events out of that tour - ( 7 when you include the European Team Champs which had golf in it )

The Middle East - 5 events
South Africa - 4 events
Far East and China - 5
Mainland Europe - 16 events

Plus a few others scattered all over the world

 

[Grant85]

In my time there has always been top English golfers coming through and someone in and around the top echelons of the sport - at times it was a small amount and currently it’s increased to a decent amount of golfers - it will be a combination of everything



This is came from a very generic statement that “England has poorly supported the men’s game in the last ten years “ -

For me it’s down to the European Tour and also the PGA tour - during the summer months most players are tailoring their schedule to the majors - that’s what helps the Scottish Open - it’s a last minute qualifier for the Open and also prep for The Open. The European Tour have also chased the money to get the better players - the Middle East and China.

Golf in England is prob best middle months of the summer - but there you have the players looking for a schedule for the Majors plus the European Tour added in Rolex to things like the French , Irish and Scottish Open

And then look at the gaps in the schedule - it’s hard to see where you could put in a Comp in England right now



The Scottish Open works because of when it is - if you changed that to an English Open on a Links course then it would be even more successful , same if you moved the Dunhill Links - they both work well

The European Tour is a global tour - last year the Uk hosted 6 events out of that tour - ( 7 when you include the European Team Champs which had golf in it )

The Middle East - 5 events
South Africa - 4 events
Far East and China - 5
Mainland Europe - 16 events

Plus a few others scattered all over the world

I agree that the scheduling of the Scottish events works in our favour. Especially for the Scottish Open.

Although a lot has gone into the Dunhill to make it the success that it is and attract very decent fields. Plus having 3 top courses to play on gives the event a lot of charm and kerb appeal.
If England were to host a similar event (probably) on NW coast, it could have 3 very good courses and would be successful, but not quite with the same global appeal or star quality, I'd guess.

Effectively next year the British Masters and PGA Championship have kind of changed places. The British Masters, a week before the US PGA is not going to do well obviously. Maybe they can get a qualifying spot or two for the following week. But I would hope the Wentworth event can get a big field at it given the time of year and that the US season will be done.

 

[Jacko_G]

Scheduling has nothing to do with the Scottish Open. They bid for that slot on the calendar. Its why some tournaments move round as they bid to get the slot that works best for the country/event/sponsor.

 

[Grant85]

Scheduling has nothing to do with the Scottish Open. They bid for that slot on the calendar. Its why some tournaments move round as they bid to get the slot that works best for the country/event/sponsor.

I'm not sure how that works, but it can't simply be a highest bidder decision.

I'm sure Ireland would put a big bid and likewise an English Open links event - certainly in years where the Open is in England would surely have more commercial might than the current Scottish event.

There were noises about the Irish and Scottish Opens changing places next year. This was a Rory suggestion, not a tour suggestion. I hope the Scottish Open said to Rory they would change if Rory committed to playing in the event... and likely heard no response.

There are certainly enough 'top' players who will play the Irish or Scottish as prep for the Open for both events to co-exist successfully. A lot of guys will play Ireland and take a week off before the Open, while others will obviously want to only come over for 2 weeks.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I agree that the scheduling of the Scottish events works in our favour. Especially for the Scottish Open.

Although a lot has gone into the Dunhill to make it the success that it is and attract very decent fields. Plus having 3 top courses to play on gives the event a lot of charm and kerb appeal.
If England were to host a similar event (probably) on NW coast, it could have 3 very good courses and would be successful, but not quite with the same global appeal or star quality, I'd guess.

Effectively next year the British Masters and PGA Championship have kind of changed places. The British Masters, a week before the US PGA is not going to do well obviously. Maybe they can get a qualifying spot or two for the following week. But I would hope the Wentworth event can get a big field at it given the time of year and that the US season will be done.

The Dunhill Links is superb - the courses are superb but take away the “Am” part of it then I don’t see it lasting long - the Am’s paying a lot of money to play keeps that Comp going - it is a great event though which hopefully will keep going

It will be interesting to see the field at this years Scottish with the Open being in Ireland - will more of the US players etc go for the Irish Open instead before the Open ?

Also would be nice to see an English Open on a Links course before the 2020
Open

I think the rescheduling will do nothing for the ET - it was done purely by the PGA to get the US PGA better exposure and the knock on effect is the ET events will suffer.

 

[Jacko_G]

I'm not sure how that works, but it can't simply be a highest bidder decision.

I'm sure Ireland would put a big bid and likewise an English Open links event - certainly in years where the Open is in England would surely have more commercial might than the current Scottish event.

There were noises about the Irish and Scottish Opens changing places next year. This was a Rory suggestion, not a tour suggestion. I hope the Scottish Open said to Rory they would change if Rory committed to playing in the event... and likely heard no response.

There are certainly enough 'top' players who will play the Irish or Scottish as prep for the Open for both events to co-exist successfully. A lot of guys will play Ireland and take a week off before the Open, while others will obviously want to only come over for 2 weeks.

You take on the slot. You then can't fulfill it for whatever reason it is offered out at a bidding process.

 

[Grant85]

The Dunhill Links is superb - the courses are superb but take away the “Am” part of it then I don’t see it lasting long - the Am’s paying a lot of money to play keeps that Comp going - it is a great event though which hopefully will keep going

It will be interesting to see the field at this years Scottish with the Open being in Ireland - will more of the US players etc go for the Irish Open instead before the Open ?

Also would be nice to see an English Open on a Links course before the 2020
Open

I think the rescheduling will do nothing for the ET - it was done purely by the PGA to get the US PGA better exposure and the knock on effect is the ET events will suffer.

I actually think it has created some opportunities.

Previously the Fed Ex Cup dominated until pretty much the end of September and as we saw this year, even with Rafa Cabrera Bello, Ian Poulter & Paul Casey having realistic chances to qualify for the Ryder Cup team outright by playing in Denmark, neither were prepared to give up the chance of the riches on offer in the play-offs.

Now the Fed Ex finishes on 25th August and so there are 4 extra weeks of golf when the ET becomes a lot more attractive to Tour pros. Hence why the PGA Champ should have a much better field next year than it has had previously in May.

I also guess the Ryder Cup qualification process will start about this time (or it should) and that may well focus the minds of a few US based Europeans.

 

[Grant85]

You take on the slot. You then can't fulfill it for whatever reason it is offered out at a bidding process.

Ok - so basically the Scottish open has that slot as long as they have a sponsor and a viable event?

Which in fairness was nearly not the case after 2013 until Aberdeen Asset Mgt stepped in.

 

[Jacko_G]

Spot on. And it's why aome events move around the calendar as they bid for a better slot or one that will entice more players or bigger players.

Money spins everything. Even back to losing events from the schedule and them being snapped up by other nations.

 

[Grant85]

Spot on. And it's why aome events move around the calendar as they bid for a better slot or one that will entice more players or bigger players.

Money spins everything. Even back to losing events from the schedule and them being snapped up by other nations.

Of course the Johnny Walker was on the schedule until 2013 and there is not even a discussion about reprising that.