Women’s professional golf - does anyone care?

[Homer]

Sadly the LET will be the first to go, then shortly followed by the European Tour as we know it now.

Look out for a World Tour - with 12/14 events plus the Majors - probably for men and women.

Europe will become a feeder tour with far less money and less opportunity other than for the very good. As it should be - as there are some very poor golfers making a living on the ET and LET and Seniors just because they have ‘career earnings’, and some very good ones who just can’t quite get on the gravy train.

 

[Grant85]

Folks, strokes gained is a very difficult stat to collate information for. And when I say difficult, I really mean expensive.

AFAIK, only the US PGA Tour collate strokes gained info. Even the mens European tour do not provide that level of stats.

You basically need to factor in every shot that every one hits throughout the course of every event. The exact position that it lands away from the tee, the proximity to the hole, whether it is in fairway, bunker, rough, fringe, green, hazard etc. and how many strokes that person then took to get down from that position.

For those who don't know, if a guy is on the tee, 425 yards away from the hole, the average score from that position on tour may be 4.00.
If he then spanks it 325 yards down the middle, leaving himself in the fairway, 100 yards from the hole, where the average score form that position is 2.50, he has gained 0.5 strokes on the field.

i.e. with 1 shot he has gone from having the average score being a 4, to the average score being 2.50.

This would be as good an indicator as any about the relative strengths of the mens and womans game, assuming they aren't going to play in too many mixed events.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Sadly the LET will be the first to go, then shortly followed by the European Tour as we know it now.

Look out for a World Tour - with 12/14 events plus the Majors - probably for men and women.

Europe will become a feeder tour with far less money and less opportunity other than for the very good. As it should be - as there are some very poor golfers making a living on the ET and LET and Seniors just because they have ‘career earnings’, and some very good ones who just can’t quite get on the gravy train.

Surely if they golfer isn’t good enough they won’t then earn enough money to stay on the tour and vice versa if the player is good enough then they will qualify- but wouldn’t call the European Tour any sort of “gravy train” - it’s a brutal tour and plenty have suffered over the years with how competitive it is.

The LET may well fold but the European Tour won’t - not with the deals they get from the Middle East that keep coming in

 

[Grant85]

Sadly the LET will be the first to go, then shortly followed by the European Tour as we know it now.

Look out for a World Tour - with 12/14 events plus the Majors - probably for men and women.

Europe will become a feeder tour with far less money and less opportunity other than for the very good. As it should be - as there are some very poor golfers making a living on the ET and LET and Seniors just because they have ‘career earnings’, and some very good ones who just can’t quite get on the gravy train.

I hear what you are saying, but this doesn't need to be the disaster some are making it out to be. In fact it has almost already happened in both the men's and woman's game. It is just that on the men's game you can still make a decent living by only being a middle of the road European based player.

Ultimately the best European players move to the states anyway, as soon as they are exempt for the PGA Tour and the ET have bowed to pressure from these guys to allow them to only play 4 events outside the WGC and the majors. Which for most of these guys tends to be either the Irish or Scottish Open, with a couple events in the middle east at the start and end of the season.

For decades the best Australian and South African players have been playing on the European Tour or the US tour. Has it made golf less successful in these countries?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I very much enjoy watching Georgia Hall and Charlie Hull - but I know of them; what they have achieved; and what they are capable of.

If you haven't heard of either then I suggest that the casual 'dip in' golf watcher won't bother to continue watching unless they are top of the leaderboard - and the dip-in viewer might be attracted to continue watching simply as they are British rather than because they have heard of either. If I start watching a LET (or LPGA) comp and either Chrlie or Georgia are within a half doz shots of the lead I will often continue to watch as I know what they are capable of. That said - the fact that I can't off top of my head name another top British LET player probably says it all.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I very much enjoy watching Georgia Hall and Charlie Hull - but I know of them; what they have achieved; and what they are capable of.

If you haven't heard of either then I suggest that the casual 'dip in' golf watcher won't bother to continue watching unless they are top of the leaderboard - and the dip-in viewer might be attracted to continue watching simply as they are British rather than because they have heard of either. If I start watching a LET (or LPGA) comp and either Chrlie or Georgia are within a half doz shots of the lead I will often continue to watch as I know what they are capable of. That said - the fact that I can't off top of my head name another top British LET player probably says it all.

That’s because there isnt any other “Top” British Lady golfers on the LET - there are four English girls in the Top 100 - two have been on the LPGA and the next after those four is Matthew at 185

There are very little Top British Lady golfers unfortunately

 

[shortgame]

waiting for you to point out where I stated facts.

anyone who thinks they are not as good is wrong.

I have stated quite clearly that women do not hit the ball as far but other than that the standard is as good

Or maybe you don't know the difference between a fact and a statement and an opinion?

I'll ignore the insult and would respectfully suggest it seems you'd rather argue (irrelevant) semantics instead of debating the topic, especially the trickier aspects like:

Do you really believe the ''not as good is wrong ' ?

Do you believe if the top women were placed in the top mens tour playing those courses, would perform and win week in week out ? Surely you don't believe they can given the difference in length between the top 10 men players vs top 10 women players?

Now, in general, I tend to agree with you on most topics but I have a different opinion on this one.

To clarify:

IMO, as much as I enjoy it, the Elite ladies game is still (slightly) weaker than the mens. This seems to correlate to the stats provided by another poster - I haven't seen any to the contrary.

If the top ladies are of an equal standard to the top men then I would have thought by now they would be clamouring to play on the mens tours as there is (rightly or wrongly) far bigger prize funds on offer.

Furthermore, I would suggest that the records of Michelle Wie and Anika Sorenstam when they played on the main PGA Tour mean that this is unrealistic (though the gap may or may not have closed).

In conclusion, I would opine that:

â–  Overall, encompassing all aspects of scoring (as that is all that really matters at the top), the mens game is still stronger than the ladies.

â–  Then, removing distance from the equation, I would say the ladies game is still (marginally) behind the mens for reasons already stated, not least of which is the far shallower talent pool.

None of this is to disrespect the ladies game which I admire.

I am a passionate and very active advocate of increasing participation across the spectrum and I'd love to see a great surge in the numbers of girls and ladies playing. In time I would think the larger talent pool would help to further improve the already exceptional standard.

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

I'll ignore the insult and would respectfully suggest it seems you'd rather argue (irrelevant) semantics instead of debating the topic, especially the trickier aspects like:




Now, in general, I tend to agree with you on most topics but I have a different opinion on this one.

To clarify:

IMO, as much as I enjoy it, the Elite ladies game is still (slightly) weaker than the mens. This seems to correlate to the stats provided by another poster - I haven't seen any to the contrary.

If the top ladies are of an equal standard to the top men then I would have thought by now they would be clamouring to play on the mens tours as there is (rightly or wrongly) far bigger prize funds on offer.

Furthermore, I would suggest that the records of Michelle Wie and Anika Sorenstam when they played on the main PGA Tour mean that this is unrealistic (though the gap may or may not have closed).

In conclusion, I would opine that:

â–  Overall, encompassing all aspects of scoring (as that is all that really matters at the top), the mens game is still stronger than the ladies.

â–  Then, removing distance from the equation, I would say the ladies game is still (marginally) behind the mens for reasons already stated, not least of which is the far shallower talent pool.

None of this is to disrespect the ladies game which I admire.

I am a passionate and very active advocate of increasing participation across the spectrum and I'd love to see a great surge in the numbers of girls and ladies playing. In time I would think the larger talent pool would help to further improve the already exceptional standard.

I respect your opinions on the women's game, we are all entitled to have one.
However, I wasn't insulting you, I was questioning why you were trying to put words into my mouth by claiming I was stating facts. I was stating opinions, if you don't understand the difference then there is no point in us debating this any further.

 

[shortgame]

I respect your opinions on the women's game, we are all entitled to have one.
However, I wasn't insulting you, I was questioning why you were trying to put words into my mouth by claiming I was stating facts. I was stating opinions, if you don't understand the difference then there is no point in us debating this any further.

Thank you, I respect your opinions too.
Let's leave it there and get back to what is a good topic and a healthy debate 👍

 

[HomerJSimpson]

There are some good players coming through like Inci Mehmet (http://www.golfhacker.org/golfhacker-magazine) and its a real shame that the lack of sponsors results in a lack of events and the tour failing. It's definitely in a poor shape and so it makes Georgia Hall's feat so much the better. It's people like Inci and others that are going to stagnate unless they can make it a US Q school and that's a tough ask with limited playing experience. How do you buck the trend? That's a tough one and the onus really lies with the tour. They need to be bullish on the back of Hall's win. Sky would undoubtedly cover it. How you get the sponsors involved is the bigger issue especially with Brexit the elephant in the room

 

[Jacko_G]

Except that the money that makes the "pro-am" possible comes from a London based, Swiss owned company.

So doesn't really reflect any support from the Scottish golf authorities.

Held at the Home of Golf due to crowd pulling and exposure reasons.

 

[Sports_Fanatic]

For those interested Niall Horan of 1D fame & co has just announced challenge tour and let will combine for northern Irish Open next year. Different events but played at same time with a prize fund of £185k.

https://www.lady-golfer.com/news/niall-horan-launches-northern-ireland-open-ladies-european-tour/

 

[Jacko_G]

For those interested Niall Horan of 1D fame & co has just announced challenge tour and let will combine for northern Irish Open next year. Different events but played at same time with a prize fund of £185k.

https://www.lady-golfer.com/news/niall-horan-launches-northern-ireland-open-ladies-european-tour/

Sounds interesting.

 

[Jacko_G]

The Pro Am is boosted by having lots of very rich celebrities willing to pay a lot of money to play the game , plus sponsorship from outside Scotland ,the Scottish Open is helped with it being just before the Open - move it two weeks after and it suffers


You were the one that singled out England

Fact is the biggest event on the European tour is held in England (plus two further events )- bigger than the Scottish events yet golf in England was /is dead and it’s healthy in Scotland ?!

As for insular - must have big mirrors around you.

Unfortunately your inability to read doesn't really surprise me. It always comes down to what Phil wants to see and what Phil wants to make an agenda out of. Its a very reasonable comparison looking at the decline in sponsorship of ladies golf over the years to the decline in the in the sponsorship mens game on the European Tour, particularly in England which once hosted a load of events. Companies have pulled out of both due to tight financial constraints, budgets, paying people off and not wanting to be seen to devote large sums elsewhere.

Just a quick glace back to 2002 shows that the European Tour has lost :

The Benson and Hedges International
Volvo PGA
Victor Chandler British Masters
Compass Group English Open
Great North Open

Fast forward to 2010 and you only have the BMW PGA event left. That shows the decline in golf worldwide. An incredible decline in sponsorship and events. Which shows it isn't simply because their is no interest in the ladies game. There was once a run of about 3 weeks in a row in England, sadly this has died. I actually think golf would have declined even further if a certain Mr Woods hadn't made an appearance and rescued golf.

2015 saw the reintroduction of the British Masters which disappeared from the Tour in 2008 I believe.

Golf Tournaments in Scotland have remained fairly steady in that time between Barclays Scottish Open being taken over by Aberdeen Asset Management. The Scottish Open is a mainstay and will continue to be due to the "links" preparation. Smart planning.

I don't know what will happen in the Ladies game in Europe but it certainly doesn't look very healthy. It actually looks seriously close to the brink in all honesty. Then again there are very few personalities, big Laura was a breath of fresh air. Georgia Hall looked like she had just come back from a funeral after she won the ladies British Open this year, her speech was even worse. Dull as dish water, wouldn't sponsor that.

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

Just a quick glace back to 2002 shows that the European Tour has lost :

The Benson and Hedges International
Volvo PGA
Victor Chandler British Masters
Compass Group English Open
Great North Open

Agreed these events may have gone but new ones have appeared elsewhere in the schedule. Granted not in England but still European tour events. Maybe it is all part of a plan to grow the game throughout the world? After all, the tour isn't all about England or the UK.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Unfortunately your inability to read doesn't really surprise me. It always comes down to what Phil wants to see and what Phil wants to make an agenda out of. Its a very reasonable comparison looking at the decline in sponsorship of ladies golf over the years to the decline in the in the sponsorship mens game on the European Tour, particularly in England which once hosted a load of events. Companies have pulled out of both due to tight financial constraints, budgets, paying people off and not wanting to be seen to devote large sums elsewhere.

Just a quick glace back to 2002 shows that the European Tour has lost :

The Benson and Hedges International
Volvo PGA
Victor Chandler British Masters
Compass Group English Open
Great North Open

Fast forward to 2010 and you only have the BMW PGA event left. That shows the decline in golf worldwide. An incredible decline in sponsorship and events. Which shows it isn't simply because their is no interest in the ladies game. There was once a run of about 3 weeks in a row in England, sadly this has died. I actually think golf would have declined even further if a certain Mr Woods hadn't made an appearance and rescued golf.

2015 saw the reintroduction of the British Masters which disappeared from the Tour in 2008 I believe.

Golf Tournaments in Scotland have remained fairly steady in that time between Barclays Scottish Open being taken over by Aberdeen Asset Management. The Scottish Open is a mainstay and will continue to be due to the "links" preparation. Smart planning.

I don't know what will happen in the Ladies game in Europe but it certainly doesn't look very healthy. It actually looks seriously close to the brink in all honesty. Then again there are very few personalities, big Laura was a breath of fresh air. Georgia Hall looked like she had just come back from a funeral after she won the ladies British Open this year, her speech was even worse. Dull as dish water, wouldn't sponsor that.

Your initial post suggested that “England”’as a country failed to support golf over the past decade - so that’s 2008 to 2018 - why are you going back to 2002 ?

In 2008 there were 2 Pro comps in England - the European Open at the London Club and the PGA - Scotland had three - so over that decade you suggest England have gone from two Pro comps to three last year where as Scotland have gone from three to 2

But going back to 2002 -

The Benson and Hedges suffered the minute tobacco advertising was banned

The Masters lost its sponsor until 4 years ago when it was back

The English Open lost its place when the European Tour wanted to extend the tour outside the boundaries of Europe

The Great North Open last a total of 5/6 years being started during the 90’s boom

I see in 2002 there was also a Scottish PGA that is no longer being played

Scotland has the Scottish Open which helps being played the week before The Open so players use it to help prepare or for some as a last minute qualifying chance and the Dunhill supported by big money from celebs which brings in the Sponsership

You decided to point a finger at England not backing golf - its very generic and you seem to think because London or England has wealth they should do more ? Maybe before pointing fingers look around

Let’s look at the health of Scottish Golf

Where are the top players ? The two highest both mainly through the US System - no real main Scottish Golf star since Monty left , in the Ladies it’s even worse with Matthew being the highest ranked at 185

It’s quite easy to point fingers of accusations but England Golf it appears is doing well

But in regards tournaments- timing and sponsorship will always be key , find a sponsor and a Comp will be hosted - but it’s always going to be hard to get a sponsor in the UK whether that be England , Scotland , Wales or Ireland

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Looking at the schedule for the LET it seems strange (at least to me) to why there are so many events so far away https://ladieseuropeantour.com/schedule-page/. Hardly helpful to emerging players on a tight budget, probably with little sponsorship to travel to Morocco, Thailand etc to chase limited purses. Surely the costs versus the money earned isn't going to stack up. Also hardly ideal for engaging with a target audience in the UK and Europe. Now I'm all for growing the game globally and we all recognise the LET is on its knees but this schedule to me reeks of a desperate gamble by the tour to grab overseas sponsor money in a bid to keep the tour afloat and indicates just how little European interest there is from sponsors. Of course that B word dominating the news is a big factor and no-one knows how things will pan out but it seems most players have to wait until July-September to get any sort of playing momentum and make their cash.

I'd like to see a few more co-sanctioned events at the same places as the mens tour (maybe have the ladies event the weekend before) or even on the Monday-Wednesday in the run up to the mens event. Anything that could piggy back on the mens tour and generate any kind of interest from media (although I'm sure Sky and ET productions would cover the ladies event) and sponsors.

 

[Jacko_G]

Your initial post suggested that “England”’as a country failed to support golf over the past decade - so that’s 2008 to 2018 - why are you going back to 2002 ?

In 2008 there were 2 Pro comps in England - the European Open at the London Club and the PGA - Scotland had three - so over that decade you suggest England have gone from two Pro comps to three last year where as Scotland have gone from three to 2

But going back to 2002 -

The Benson and Hedges suffered the minute tobacco advertising was banned

The Masters lost its sponsor until 4 years ago when it was back

The English Open lost its place when the European Tour wanted to extend the tour outside the boundaries of Europe

The Great North Open last a total of 5/6 years being started during the 90’s boom

I see in 2002 there was also a Scottish PGA that is no longer being played

Scotland has the Scottish Open which helps being played the week before The Open so players use it to help prepare or for some as a last minute qualifying chance and the Dunhill supported by big money from celebs which brings in the Sponsership

You decided to point a finger at England not backing golf - its very generic and you seem to think because London or England has wealth they should do more ? Maybe before pointing fingers look around

Let’s look at the health of Scottish Golf

Where are the top players ? The two highest both mainly through the US System - no real main Scottish Golf star since Monty left , in the Ladies it’s even worse with Matthew being the highest ranked at 185

It’s quite easy to point fingers of accusations but England Golf it appears is doing well

But in regards tournaments- timing and sponsorship will always be key , find a sponsor and a Comp will be hosted - but it’s always going to be hard to get a sponsor in the UK whether that be England , Scotland , Wales or Ireland

You really are clueless.

Insular to the core my friend. Bring back the crusades eh!

 

[Jacko_G]

Agreed these events may have gone but new ones have appeared elsewhere in the schedule. Granted not in England but still European tour events. Maybe it is all part of a plan to grow the game throughout the world? After all, the tour isn't all about England or the UK.

Absolutely, some events/slots have been bought over by other countries however they have taken these on due to the decline of golf sponsorship in this country.

 

[Jacko_G]

And another thing the Scottish PGA is the same as the Johnnie Walker, just proves that you can't even keep up with your own argument.

God Save The Queen.