Winter matchplay unfairness for low handicappers

[Twissy22]

Just had a quick browse through this topic and am I reading this correctly that folk actually think a shortened course suits low guys more than high in winter ? If so, you really need to leave the crystal meths alone. No rough, slow greens, much shorter par 4s all leads to suiting higher H/caps.

On another matter, as posted above, I certainly don't see someone off of 9 as a low handicap, cat 1 yes, 6 or 7 maybe, anything above isn't low in my book.

Just my tuppence.

I was off 6-7 for last 3 years , had a bad season with injury and doing up a house so golf suffered went up to 9 but still can't win against 15-20+ handicappers on shortened course. Played alot better this winter than I did of 7 and still no joy on shortened course which just shows how important handicap is on shortened course. Some of my mates two Lads of scratch and 1 entered got beaten 5 and 4. On way home in car said not playing this anymore.

 

[Twissy22]

Stand by my earlier comments it all seems a little sour because of the initial post wins all 4 before shortened course but can't win after which is subsequently denied in later posts.

Short course or long course is same for everyone playing it. To say a low handicapper wont hole putts because of greens is ridiculous you can say the same for high handicappers,. Plus the higher player more likely to be erratic off the tee regardless of how long a hole is. Through the course of 18 holes the low guy should still out score the higher player especially in Matchplay, if you were saying stableford full allowance then I'd agree favours the higher player because they can protect more, but Matchplay all you have to do is put them under more pressure and the difference in levels will come through.

Im also interested in the OP course tight tree lined ravine holes... I'd like to know where it is.

Come and have a game. IV played tighter courses but ravines add alot of danger, need to hit 200 yards or your in trouble but winter these are out of play. Last winter we won first 4 then only managed two draws and three loses. This year 3 wins a draw a loss then shortened three loses. Three years ago similar to this year, top of the league for Xmas 5th by end of season bit like my team Middlesbrough

 

[robinthehood]

When did 5, 6, 7 become low ? It's all relative I suppose but I know a few plus guys and to me that's a low handicap

 

[User20204]

When did 5, 6, 7 become low ? It's all relative I suppose but I know a few plus guys and to me that's a low handicap

All relative indeed, there are some who think being single figures is low.

 

[MendieGK]

I’m still waiting for Homer to tell us which course he is playing at that’s immaculate all year round.

Personally I don’t think it’s debatable that a shortened course where people’s handicap is based suits a higher handicap more.

The closer we get to the hole, the less difference there is between level.

People at my course are having over 50pts in competitions where 37/38 would usually be in with a sniff. For me to shoot 50 points I would have to shot 59 😂😂

 

[garyinderry]

I don't think anyone is saying a shortened course means a 20 odd handicap will eat it up. what usually happens is seasoned teen handicapper will go to town and shoot well in the 70s.

My mate who is off 23, admittedly an improving player, shot 27 points on the back 9 on Saturday. these crazy scores happen more often in winter.

Pars become easier to make all around but birdies are still not all that easy.


We play off 3/4's for our winter and spring leagues. the scoring is pretty high all round.

 

[Twissy22]

I know people of 1 or 2 who are not that great but play at short easy courses then come me to my course and go around 10 over. Look up county championship results at any county. Always plenty of scratch golfers going around in mid 80s.

 

[patricks148]

My course has no winter tees or greens so plays the same length all year round. Definitely an advantage to low H/C where I am

in your case it prob is the case, but shorter courses over winter maybe not

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Threads evolve sometimes on this forum, which is good imo.
The op stated it was 4BBB matchplay 90% difference, so he and his partner were effectively off scratch against a 10 and 6 handicapper.
Both opponents expected to play to 10 shots below their normal handicap.
Quite a different scenario to a 4BBB stableford comp getting 90% of handicap.
All handicaps tend to score better in Winter off shorter courses, but just like the summer stableford comps the Cat 1 guys have very little chance of competeing.
Still no mention of what course he plays at?

 

[Wolf]

Threads evolve sometimes on this forum, which is good imo.
The op stated it was 4BBB matchplay 90% difference, so he and his partner were effectively off scratch against a 10 and 6 handicapper.
Both opponents expected to play to 10 shots below their normal handicap.
Quite a different scenario to a 4BBB stableford comp getting 90% of handicap.
All handicaps tend to score better in Winter off shorter courses, but just like the summer stableford comps the Cat 1 guys have very little chance of competeing.
Still no mention of what course he plays at?

Completely agree with your post, but hugely intrigued by the bit in bold. Parkland course with big ravines that need 200 yard carries yet supposedly still favours a high handicap🤔

Not going to be many 20+ handicaps making those carries

 

[patricks148]

Mendie is a Cat 1, the thread starter is off 9, same as me. The course is the course, everybody gets it easier in theory, look at Mendie’s score he quoted.
He wants the system loaded in his favour, if that’s the case, stick to gross comps, but then he’ll probably moan that that suits the scratch golfers.

Sure 9 isn't low, but plenty have had a dig at the guys for "another low guy moaning about losing" I joint Nairn Dunbar this winter and they run a comp every weekend NQ of course about 4 guys in my group are long time members the and all all cat1, when i suggested we should all play in the comps on a sat, all 4 said we don't bother its always won with a score in the 40;s by a higher handicap... which from my experience so far has been backed up. and lets not forget your handicap is gained off the full course in summer, which is NB case is 6800, and has some long holes 450 plus all of a sudden these are under 300 and all with a shot for someone off DF

I'm not in it to win it TBH its a bit of competitive golf for a change, something we don't have at Nairn so its nice to have to play for a score rather than the 5 months of 4sms/4BBB/Greensomes

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Sure 9 isn't low, but plenty have had a dig at the guys for "another low guy moaning about losing" I joint Nairn Dunbar this winter and they run a comp every weekend NQ of course about 4 guys in my group are long time members the and all all cat1, when i suggested we should all play in the comps on a sat, all 4 said we don't bother its always won with a score in the 40;s by a higher handicap... which from my experience so far has been backed up. and lets not forget your handicap is gained off the full course in summer, which is NB case is 6800, and has some long holes 450 plus all of a sudden these are under 300 and all with a shot for someone off DF

I'm not in it to win it TBH its a bit of competitive golf for a change, something we don't have at Nairn so its nice to have to play for a score rather than the 5 months of 4sms/4BBB/Greensomes

Patrick, I agree with everything your saying, but it’s winter golf, 99% of comps in England will be non-qualifiers, very few of our Cat 1’s play much in the winter for the reasons you state.
4BBB yesterday at our place, me and a lad off 3 got 43 points, might make top ten, lad off 3 had a 5 pointer on a Par 5 (SI 2), we laughed and enjoyed the day.
It’s the same every year, don’t enter the comps if you don’t like it. (Not you)

 

[Coffey]

Completely agree with your post, but hugely intrigued by the bit in bold. Parkland course with big ravines that need 200 yard carries yet supposedly still favours a high handicap🤔

Not going to be many 20+ handicaps making those carries

He said that in winter they are out of play as the tees are moved forward.

It is all relative to the course and what the holes are like. If danger is taken out of the play off the tee which would normally affect the higher handicapper then of course it is going to be easier for them. Just because it is shorter does not also mean the low man will be driving the green or hitting it further down there, you may find that the low man and high man are now landing in similar areas as it is too risky for the low man to go at the green/hit driver.

 

[Wolf]

He said that in winter they are out of play as the tees are moved forward.

It is all relative to the course and what the holes are like. If danger is taken out of the play off the tee which would normally affect the higher handicapper then of course it is going to be easier for them. Just because it is shorter does not also mean the low man will be driving the green or hitting it further down there, you may find that the low man and high man are now landing in similar areas as it is too risky for the low man to go at the green/hit driver.

I understand that but then leans toward the point of is happy to play the course as long at it favours him rather than being fair for everyone.

The point of they'll be land same distance for me also doesn't ring true as of they can carry same distance then those 200 yard carry shots in summer should equally be no issue especially as ball flies further. The low player will still in winter more likely to be playing from fairway and should more likely have a more accurate short game. Like I said before in Matchplay the low guy in these circumstances should still majority of the time come out on top. In stableford I'd expect it to be reversed and favour the higher handicap as it does at anytime of year as it allowed for a blow up but Matchplay doesn't.

 

[Hobbit]

A couple of things I've not seen mentioned is shorter carries due to air temp and less run on the ball due to softer conditions. The courses may be shorter but so are the shots played. What the conditions help with is the ball is less likely to run off the fairway. And if it does, the rough has died back a bit. But that still leaves the issue of less carry and less run.

Obviously the amount of length taken from a hole can make a difference if its excessive.

 

[patricks148]

Patrick, I agree with everything your saying, but it’s winter golf, 99% of comps in England will be non-qualifiers, very few of our Cat 1’s play much in the winter for the reasons you state.
4BBB yesterday at our place, me and a lad off 3 got 43 points, might make top ten, lad off 3 had a 5 pointer on a Par 5 (SI 2), we laughed and enjoyed the day.
It’s the same every year, don’t enter the comps if you don’t like it. (Not you)

look at it another way... its a handicap comp so everyone "should" have a chance at winning or at least competing, how would you feel the other way round if you were told in a handicap comp " don't bother, you can't win" ??

results are in from Sat, wasn't even in the top 6, i was the lowest handicap in that by 10 shots.... still a winner though took £11 from the boys for the pot

 

[Jacko_G]

I've played with plenty of "high" handicaps that can comfortably knock the ball past me off the tee, granted at times it can sometimes be erratic. However with a shortened course then they can potentially play "safer" and keep the big dog in the bag, lay up or find the fairway with the 5 wood or a hybrid as they can still make the carries if the course is significantly shorter.

However that said as Mendie said its a great leveller the closer you are to the hole.

I also don't agree that the low man will always be on the fairway, green in regulation etc. Again from experience the low man usually excels in course management compared to the higher golfer. Those off of 10-14ish (just an example) can clearly play golf to a decent standard and on their day can really perform. Maybe a "blow up" or two but they can consistently get pars and whoop ass with their shots. A 1 or 2 handicap isn't going to make 8 birdies a round.

 

[Coffey]

I understand that but then leans toward the point of is happy to play the course as long at it favours him rather than being fair for everyone.

The point of they'll be land same distance for me also doesn't ring true as of they can carry same distance then those 200 yard carry shots in summer should equally be no issue especially as ball flies further. The low player will still in winter more likely to be playing from fairway and should more likely have a more accurate short game. Like I said before in Matchplay the low guy in these circumstances should still majority of the time come out on top. In stableford I'd expect it to be reversed and favour the higher handicap as it does at anytime of year as it allowed for a blow up but Matchplay doesn't.

What he is saying is that in summer you need a 200 yard carry to clear the ravine, in winter the tee's are further forward and therefore may only need 100 yard carry (obviously I am guessing as I have no idea of his course setup). Regarding the fairway, It is preferred lies in most places anyway so if you are in the rough then you just put it on a nice bit of grass and you'll be fine. I dont find the rough punishing at all in winter as it is normally cut down anyway.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

look at it another way... its a handicap comp so everyone "should" have a chance at winning or at least competing, how would you feel the other way round if you were told in a handicap comp " don't bother, you can't win" ??

results are in from Sat, wasn't even in the top 6, i was the lowest handicap in that by 10 shots.... still a winner though took £11 from the boys for the pot

Surely if it’s a handicap comp then a level playing field would be off full handicap, not 90%.
The higher the handicap the more shots they lose/have to make up.
If they don’t like the handicap system, stick to gross comps.
Then the moan will be, “why isn’t it a nett comp? I’m off 9, I’ve got no chance against a scratch golfer”

 

[Deleted member 16999]

I understand that but then leans toward the point of is happy to play the course as long at it favours him rather than being fair for everyone.

The point of they'll be land same distance for me also doesn't ring true as of they can carry same distance then those 200 yard carry shots in summer should equally be no issue especially as ball flies further. The low player will still in winter more likely to be playing from fairway and should more likely have a more accurate short game. Like I said before in Matchplay the low guy in these circumstances should still majority of the time come out on top. In stableford I'd expect it to be reversed and favour the higher handicap as it does at anytime of year as it allowed for a blow up but Matchplay doesn't.

If the course he describes actually exists in the UK.