Winter matchplay unfairness for low handicappers

[Grant85]

As I alluded to before, our winter knockout (pairs) is an honours board event and so off our whites and a full course. This makes the argument of favouring higher handicappers over shorter courses mute as far as our event is concerned. Indeed holes like our 3rd which has a 180 yard carry (usually into wind) plays very much into the lower handicappers favour (SI 8) as there is no real easy lay up off the tee. As it's matchplay and no handicap at stake all our low players are in it. At the end of the day, it's a knockout event and you play who your are drawn against, play with the shots given or received and get on with it. I don't buy that it favours higher handicappers (especially given the length of the course for the matches) but no-one has griped in the 19th about how unfair it all is in terms of handicaps

fair enough if that is your event and your club elect to use the course in that way through the winter.

It has never been the case at any of the clubs I've played at (albeit 400 miles further north) and course protection has always been in operation in terms of shorter tees, fairway mats, obviously not much rough as the grass thins out with no growth. Plus there will often be 'winter league' matches played to temporary greens - meaning an even shorter course and greens no longer protected with bunkering.

Played plenty a winter sweep with full handicaps where a score in the 50s hasn't won.

 

[TheJezster]

Sorry, but this smells of elitism at the very least, if your club has such an issue to limit handicaps in comps maybe you need to look internal.
Also these will also be non-qualifiers as well in the summer.

Why does it smell of elitism? It makes it fairer across the board.

Noone is limiting who can enter, just how many shots can be given, ie a maximum of 18 (1 per hole)

It's 4BBB, these are NOT qualifying comps, and never have been, so why even state that?

 

[MendieGK]

As I alluded to before, our winter knockout (pairs) is an honours board event and so off our whites and a full course. This makes the argument of favouring higher handicappers over shorter courses mute as far as our event is concerned. Indeed holes like our 3rd which has a 180 yard carry (usually into wind) plays very much into the lower handicappers favour (SI 8) as there is no real easy lay up off the tee. As it's matchplay and no handicap at stake all our low players are in it. At the end of the day, it's a knockout event and you play who your are drawn against, play with the shots given or received and get on with it. I don't buy that it favours higher handicappers (especially given the length of the course for the matches) but no-one has griped in the 19th about how unfair it all is in terms of handicaps

Homer, i dont really get this post. it has no relevance at all because you play the course at its full length......

 

[patricks148]

As I alluded to before, our winter knockout (pairs) is an honours board event and so off our whites and a full course. This makes the argument of favouring higher handicappers over shorter courses mute as far as our event is concerned. Indeed holes like our 3rd which has a 180 yard carry (usually into wind) plays very much into the lower handicappers favour (SI 8) as there is no real easy lay up off the tee. As it's matchplay and no handicap at stake all our low players are in it. At the end of the day, it's a knockout event and you play who your are drawn against, play with the shots given or received and get on with it. I don't buy that it favours higher handicappers (especially given the length of the course for the matches) but no-one has griped in the 19th about how unfair it all is in terms of handicaps

no one is saying that here either Homer, you really Must start readying posts before replying.

pretty much everyone that is saying its easier is saying on shorter winter course, thats outside the normal tee summer tee's

 

[Bxm Foxy]

Shortened winter conditions do definitely favour the higher mid / handicap golfers. There's always a few scary holes off the back tees that scare the hell out of us ordinary golfers!!!

 

[patricks148]

I agree that 'winter' conditions tend to favour higher handicappers using their shots.

Course shorter, less rough and greens easier to hold and pretty tricky to 1 putt, but easier to 2 putt.

I guess this is simply the variances of golf. On any given day a course could easily play significantly harder or easier than the course rating - depending on tee placement, width of fairways, pin placements, speed of greens, thickness of rough, overhead conditions etc.

It's fair to say that most 'good' players should prefer 'tougher' conditions - but many single figure handicappers will protect their handicap fiercely and refuse to play in tricky conditions or even play more than a handful of medals a year.

i don't agree on the bit in bold, all the guys i play with are single fig mostly cat 1 and we play in every saturday medal, many also playing opens as well, i played 25 qual comps last year and that was down on the prev year.

all the little squirts at my club play in every comp as well so some weeks they are playing 4 comps a week.... even the Sunday Stableford and most of them are scratch and better

 

[duncan mackie]

I know what he is saying and everyone knows all handicaps are given at full length that's the CONGU system.

I also understand its easier for the higher handicaps but shortened course isn't just easier for them it's easier for everyone therefore a more level playing field than when they have the longer carries this is imo what the OP doesn't like. Matchplay the lower guy should majority if time come out on top no matter how long or easy the course is. It's only when you hit stableford then does the higher guy gain advantages.

Whilst I agree with the principles in your second paragraph, the handicap system has no requirement for this mythical 'full length' 🤔

For me the most critical element is that, in general, different tees as well as different conditions (associated with winter golf) will either provide an advantage or disadvantage to every golfer - regardless of handicap.

There's no doubt that there will be more advantages to many (not all) higher handicappers than there will be to elite golfers, that's just the way it goes. It's as valid to generalise that hard baked fairways will favour many shorter&straighter players, fast smooth undulating greens the better putters - firm them up and the best ball strikers get their turn!
But it's important to recognise that such advantages are fundamentally relative to the course and conditions under which a handicap is maintained. For most that will be their home course and it's competition tees (or at least the tees that any player plays the majority of their competition golf from - we run men's comps from 3 different sets of rated tees through the year and it's noticeable that some players will only play in them from some tees). Whilst the ratings nominally even things out for handicapping they have to assume some characteristics that, in reality, don't always apply - c'est la vie.
Really don't understand why people (not you Wolf!) get so wound up about it.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Why does it smell of elitism? It makes it fairer across the board.

Noone is limiting who can enter, just how many shots can be given, ie a maximum of 18 (1 per hole)

It's 4BBB, these are NOT qualifying comps, and never have been, so why even state that?

So if a member off 28 wishes to enter he has to play to 10 under handicap just to stand a chance! How is that fairer across the board for handicaps of 19 and above!

You didn’t say if the summer comps were either board comps or as at 01 Jan can’t 4BBB scores be used for handicap reduction. How is that fair in the summer off full courses?

 

[TheJezster]

So if a member off 28 wishes to enter he has to play to 10 under handicap just to stand a chance! How is that fairer across the board for handicaps of 19 and above!

You didn’t say if the summer comps were either board comps or as at 01 Jan can’t 4BBB scores be used for handicap reduction. How is that fair in the summer off full courses?

No he doesnt! Read it again. A 28 handicapper will partner, say a 5 handicapper, so rather than getting 21 shots off him, he will only receive 18. It simply stops people getting more than 1 shot a hole in our doubles matchplay comps.

How CAN 4BBB be qualifying, you dont necessarily score on all 18 holes!!???

 

[Grant85]

i don't agree on the bit in bold, all the guys i play with are single fig mostly cat 1 and we play in every saturday medal, many also playing opens as well, i played 25 qual comps last year and that was down on the prev year.

all the little squirts at my club play in every comp as well so some weeks they are playing 4 comps a week.... even the Sunday Stableford and most of them are scratch and better

Anecdotally you will always find people on both sides. I've certainly seen people who are quite happy playing weekend sweeps, but pick and choose their counters - especially at the start and end of the season.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

No he doesnt! Read it again. A 28 handicapper will partner, say a 5 handicapper, so rather than getting 21 shots off him, he will only receive 18. It simply stops people getting more than 1 shot a hole in our doubles matchplay comps.

How CAN 4BBB be qualifying, you dont necessarily score on all 18 holes!!???

What if 2 28 handicappers wish to play together?
Why shouldn’t a person get more than 1 shot a hole? If that’s their genuine handicap, you’re manipulating the comp to favour those 18 and below.

Ask Congu about the 4BBB and how it will be used, it was mentioned on here.

 

[TheJezster]

Nothing wrong if two 28 handicappers want to play together. Nothing at all.

They might be playing say a 10 and a 15 handicapper, in which case they'd receive 16 and 12 shots.

The OP asked what other clubs did for their 4BBB competitions, and I answered what we do, which works very well. You decided to misread it and jump on it for some reason, without knowing our course or how it works.

Dont forget, the difference has to be 21 for someone to receive 19 shots, so 7 or below if they are a 28 hc. This only affects the extremes, the normal mid band of players from 8 to 25ish are unaffected.

One of our quarter finalists is off 33 and she's done really well. Her partner is off 15 and they recently played a father son paring off 19 and 6. So she was limited to 18 shots, one per hole. They won, but it was a close match, which is what we wanted. It's why we introduced the rule.

You have to look at the courses individually, rather than making blanket statements. What works for one course might not work for another, and vice versa

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Nothing wrong if two 28 handicappers want to play together. Nothing at all.

They might be playing say a 10 and a 15 handicapper, in which case they'd receive 16 and 12 shots.

The OP asked what other clubs did for their 4BBB competitions, and I answered what we do, which works very well. You decided to misread it and jump on it for some reason, without knowing our course or how it works.

Dont forget, the difference has to be 21 for someone to receive 19 shots, so 7 or below if they are a 28 hc. This only affects the extremes, the normal mid band of players from 8 to 25ish are unaffected.

One of our quarter finalists is off 33 and she's done really well. Her partner is off 15 and they recently played a father son paring off 19 and 6. So she was limited to 18 shots, one per hole. They won, but it was a close match, which is what we wanted. It's why we introduced the rule.

You have to look at the courses individually, rather than making blanket statements. What works for one course might not work for another, and vice versa

Again, probably like me, you’re picking the scenario to fit your point of view, if those people of 28 got drawn to play the guy off 3 they’d lose some shots and be capped at 18.

I’m simply asking why it is deemed to be fair that high handicappers are the only ones to lose out when handicap limits are imposed.

Maybe just maybe they need 2 extra shots on a par 3 when conditions are dry.

 

[patricks148]

Anecdotally you will always find people on both sides. I've certainly seen people who are quite happy playing weekend sweeps, but pick and choose their counters - especially at the start and end of the season.

i don't know any low handicapper up here that picks and chooses, though that might change once the new handicap system comes in

 

[clubchamp98]

Yep, I always enter. I enjoy it but have zero expectations. Just keeps it ticking over Nov-feb

This .
I pay £1400 a year and if I don’t play in the winter comps I won’t get a tee time on Saturday.
Shorter course is not a prob imo , the slow bumpy greens that always do me.
If you win great if you don’t just shake hands say “well done”

 

[Deleted member 15344]

For 99% of us winter is just about keeping the swing going and most comps are normally fun comps with the main idea to keep the competitive juices flowing and to maybe meet new people. At times the course is a bit shorter but then the run is less - i have found the scores are improved for most players at times but it still imo is pretty level for all.

Any qualifying comps will be off a measured course anyway and people will get cut if they play well of course

But in my time playing golf and doing the score it’s certainly not the high handicappers that are winning the winter comps - it’s low to mid , that’s singles KO , 4BBB league and KO

But surely it’s all a bit of fun at the end of the day - we aren’t playing for a living ,it’s a hobby - is anyone really that worried about losing or winning a game regardless of people’s handicaps

For me it always seems to amaze me how many people are that bothered or worried about the handicap of someone else

 

[TheJezster]

Again, probably like me, you’re picking the scenario to fit your point of view, if those people of 28 got drawn to play the guy off 3 they’d lose some shots and be capped at 18.

I’m simply asking why it is deemed to be fair that high handicappers are the only ones to lose out when handicap limits are imposed.

Maybe just maybe they need 2 extra shots on a par 3 when conditions are dry.

This is why we looked at the whole and not just certain situations. After looking at the results this is the solution we came up with, initially as a trial. The trial worked very well. You have to know the club is what I'm saying, because absolutely this solution might not work at all other clubs.

The 'guy' off 3 is actually a girl btw ;-)

So after handicap adjustment to play off the mens card her handicap is calculated as 6. The lowest male member is 5

 

[duncan mackie]

i don't know any low handicapper up here that picks and chooses, though that might change once the new handicap system comes in

Should be the other way round!

Going forwards a round may, or may not, become an active part of your handicap calculation. Today it's guaranteed to have an impact of some sort (even if it's a buffer 0 it gets taken into account in some of the deeper calculation routines)

 

[patricks148]

Should be the other way round!

Going forwards a round may, or may not, become an active part of your handicap calculation. Today it's guaranteed to have an impact of some sort (even if it's a buffer 0 it gets taken into account in some of the deeper calculation routines)

At the moment i want to take every opportunity to get lower, sometimes if the conditions just don't suite i still play, but maybe when you can nominate a round, i can do it on the friday when it nice and warm and not have to wait till Sat when its freezing and blowing a gale

 

[duncan mackie]

At the moment i want to take every opportunity to get lower, sometimes if the conditions just don't suite i still play, but maybe when you can nominate a round, i can do it on the friday when it nice and warm and not have to wait till Sat when its freezing and blowing a gale

Or do both 😉