Winter matchplay unfairness for low handicappers

[Wolf]

What he is saying is that in summer you need a 200 yard carry to clear the ravine, in winter the tee's are further forward and therefore may only need 100 yard carry (obviously I am guessing as I have no idea of his course setup). Regarding the fairway, It is preferred lies in most places anyway so if you are in the rough then you just put it on a nice bit of grass and you'll be fine. I dont find the rough punishing at all in winter as it is normally cut down anyway.

I understand what he's saying in winter means they can all carry it in summer they can't so again refers to preferring the setup that favours him and gives him advantage.

It still comes down to accuracy and short game which the lower guy should win at every time in Matchplay and generally stroke play. Stableford will always favour the higher guy even in summer imo.

 

[Wolf]

If the course he describes actually exists in the UK.

EA Sports Tiger Woods PGA tour 12 type course perhaps 🤔

 

[Coffey]

I understand what he's saying in winter means they can all carry it in summer they can't so again refers to preferring the setup that favours him and gives him advantage.

It still comes down to accuracy and short game which the lower guy should win at every time in Matchplay and generally stroke play. Stableford will always favour the higher guy even in summer imo.

No he is saying that all handicaps are given against the course when it is in full length. Take the hazards out of play (which are only in play for the shorter/higher handicap) then it is easier for the higher handicap as where they may have dropped shots is no longer in play.

Agreed, but it is a lot harder to stick it to 5 foot consistently and sink a putt to make birdie than it is to stick it to 20 foot and 2 putt. Add a shot in there and it is very difficult for the lower handicap to get a win. If the higher handicap is straight and short off the tee, the shorter course definitely suits them as their game is consistency but will never have the length in summer (even with the added roll and air temps).

To be honest, at my course it doesn't make a huge difference, although we aren't playing match play. Most winners are mid to high but that is the same in summer (like any stableford comp i would imagine)

 

[Wolf]

No he is saying that all handicaps are given against the course when it is in full length. Take the hazards out of play (which are only in play for the shorter/higher handicap) then it is easier for the higher handicap as where they may have dropped shots is no longer in play.

Agreed, but it is a lot harder to stick it to 5 foot consistently and sink a putt to make birdie than it is to stick it to 20 foot and 2 putt. Add a shot in there and it is very difficult for the lower handicap to get a win. If the higher handicap is straight and short off the tee, the shorter course definitely suits them as their game is consistency but will never have the length in summer (even with the added roll and air temps).

To be honest, at my course it doesn't make a huge difference, although we aren't playing match play. Most winners are mid to high but that is the same in summer (like any stableford comp i would imagine)

I know what he is saying and everyone knows all handicaps are given at full length that's the CONGU system.

I also understand its easier for the higher handicaps but shortened course isn't just easier for them it's easier for everyone therefore a more level playing field than when they have the longer carries this is imo what the OP doesn't like. Matchplay the lower guy should majority if time come out on top no matter how long or easy the course is. It's only when you hit stableford then does the higher guy gain advantages.

 

[patricks148]

Surely if it’s a handicap comp then a level playing field would be off full handicap, not 90%.
The higher the handicap the more shots they lose/have to make up.
If they don’t like the handicap system, stick to gross comps.
Then the moan will be, “why isn’t it a nett comp? I’m off 9, I’ve got no chance against a scratch golfer”

but if you entering a scratch comp you have little or no chance unless you 1 or lower, but in a handicap comp you should all have a chance, simply not the case under the current conditions of short holes, no rough and slow greens

ND comps are 3/4 so Higher handicaps are indeed losing more shots, but 3 guy at the top 3 all 46 points all two of which were 23 handicappers. so even 3/4 its still showing towards Higher handicaps having the upper hand

The handicap system works on the whole as 37 points wins most weeks summer conditions around Nair and ND, it can't be coincidence that a 23 handicap can shoot 46 points in winter but can't break 30 in summer.. can it

 

[patricks148]

I know what he is saying and everyone knows all handicaps are given at full length that's the CONGU system.

I also understand its easier for the higher handicaps but shortened course isn't just easier for them it's easier for everyone therefore a more level playing field than when they have the longer carries this is imo what the OP doesn't like. Matchplay the lower guy should majority if time come out on top no matter how long or easy the course is. It's only when you hit stableford then does the higher guy gain advantages.

how do you know that, do congu take into account winter NQ comp data?

it is easier for everyone, but you have to also take into account that there is no advantage for hitting the fairway, at the moment here there is zero rough, so there in no advantage for hitting the fairway

 

[Jacko_G]

Look back over the years results at your club.

Tell me how many cat 1 golfers come in with net 62/63. Then compare that to other classes. Low guys in general have very little chance of winning club competitions other than the Club Championship.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

but if you entering a scratch comp you have little or no chance unless you 1 or lower, but in a handicap comp you should all have a chance, simply not the case under the current conditions of short holes, no rough and slow greens

ND comps are 3/4 so Higher handicaps are indeed losing more shots, but 3 guy at the top 3 all 46 points all two of which were 23 handicappers. so even 3/4 its still showing towards Higher handicaps having the upper hand

The handicap system works on the whole as 37 points wins most weeks summer conditions around Nair and ND, it can't be coincidence that a 23 handicap can shoot 46 points in winter but can't break 30 in summer.. can it

I get all that mate(if it’s ok to call you that) but you know the format and rules before you play, saying nothing when conditions suit and moaning when they don’t is sour grapes, why would this year be any diferent from the last.

 

[patricks148]

Look back over the years results at your club.

Tell me how many cat 1 golfers come in with net 62/63. Then compare that to other classes. Low guys in general have very little chance of winning club competitions other than the Club Championship.

Sandy Scott (+5)shot a gross 65 last year, in a handicap comp, i think he was 3rd he had a 2 though and got the gross
thats why we have a net a gross for all the medals and silver trophies.... not the stablefords though

 

[patricks148]

I get all that mate(if it’s ok to call you that) but you know the format and rules before you play, saying nothing when conditions suit and moaning when they don’t is sour grapes, why would this year be any diferent from the last.

how dare you

 

[Coffey]

I know what he is saying and everyone knows all handicaps are given at full length that's the CONGU system.

I also understand its easier for the higher handicaps but shortened course isn't just easier for them it's easier for everyone therefore a more level playing field than when they have the longer carries this is imo what the OP doesn't like. Matchplay the lower guy should majority if time come out on top no matter how long or easy the course is. It's only when you hit stableford then does the higher guy gain advantages.

But put in a scenario where a 400 yard par 4 is now a 300 yard par 4. Gorse surrounds the green so hitting driver is risky. You decide to lay up to 100 yards to the pin. The higher handicap can hit driver straight 200 yards, They now have 100 yards to the pin (which would normally be 200).

You are both standing there 100 yards out and the higher handicapper has a shot. He hits the green, you basically now need to have a birdie to half the hole. In summer they would be using their 3 wood to hit the green and this is where their shot comes in to even it up.

Of course it is easier for the higher handicap, maybe more so for the straight hitting shorter one rather than the longer wild one.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

But put in a scenario where a 400 yard par 4 is now a 300 yard par 4. Gorse surrounds the green so hitting driver is risky. You decide to lay up to 100 yards to the pin. The higher handicap can hit driver straight 200 yards, They now have 100 yards to the pin (which would normally be 200).

You are both standing there 100 yards out and the higher handicapper has a shot. He hits the green, you basically now need to have a birdie to half the hole. In summer they would be using their 3 wood to hit the green and this is where their shot comes in to even it up.

Of course it is easier for the higher handicap, maybe more so for the straight hitting shorter one rather than the longer wild one.

But you’re using 1 hole to prove the theory, if that scenario was in thread starters game yesterday and that hole was SI 11, the 20 and 16 handicappers need to Par it with no shot against 2 9 handicappers who you expect 1 of them to definitely Par.

That’s why most agree it’s better when Stableford for the higher handicappers than matchplay.

 

[Wolf]

But put in a scenario where a 400 yard par 4 is now a 300 yard par 4. Gorse surrounds the green so hitting driver is risky. You decide to lay up to 100 yards to the pin. The higher handicap can hit driver straight 200 yards, They now have 100 yards to the pin (which would normally be 200).

You are both standing there 100 yards out and the higher handicapper has a shot. He hits the green, you basically now need to have a birdie to half the hole. In summer they would be using their 3 wood to hit the green and this is where their shot comes in to even it up.

Of course it is easier for the higher handicap, maybe more so for the straight hitting shorter one rather than the longer wild one.

17 other holes out there using a one hole scenario doesn't equate to ease throughout the whole round, the non shot holes are where the lower guy wins it. That's the whole point of them having shots on harder holes to create a level playing field.

I completely understand all of your points I simply don't agree that Matchplay regardless of length or lack of length of course favours the high guy. Stableford absolutely 100% as they have more room for error

 

[TheJezster]

The scenario you are talking about seems about right, you two are mid cappers and not really giving too many shots away, so the matches should be fairly even, even on a shorter course. You will also hit closer to the hole, and only giving around 6 shots to someone isnt the end of the world.

The real low handicappers might have issues playing against people on 20+ but then they are that hc for a reason.

At ours I argued successfully, for the winter to be limited to no more than 1 shot per hole. This worked out quite well and the knock outs have just started after the round robin stage. This has left a nice mix of handicap groups left in the comp. The lowest who entered, off 3 is still in it.

We'll do the same for the summer as well, no more than 1 shot per hole, despite the handicap difference. When you have to give 2 shots on a par 3 which is easily reachable in dry conditions it becomes VERY hard!

 

[Coffey]

Yes 100%, which is why it completely depends on the course and how different it is. If what he has said is true and that the course 1000 yards shorter in winter than I would imagine it does suit the higher handicap straighter hitter more.

 

[Grant85]

I agree that 'winter' conditions tend to favour higher handicappers using their shots.

Course shorter, less rough and greens easier to hold and pretty tricky to 1 putt, but easier to 2 putt.

I guess this is simply the variances of golf. On any given day a course could easily play significantly harder or easier than the course rating - depending on tee placement, width of fairways, pin placements, speed of greens, thickness of rough, overhead conditions etc.

It's fair to say that most 'good' players should prefer 'tougher' conditions - but many single figure handicappers will protect their handicap fiercely and refuse to play in tricky conditions or even play more than a handful of medals a year.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

The scenario you are talking about seems about right, you two are mid cappers and not really giving too many shots away, so the matches should be fairly even, even on a shorter course. You will also hit closer to the hole, and only giving around 6 shots to someone isnt the end of the world.

The real low handicappers might have issues playing against people on 20+ but then they are that hc for a reason.

At ours I argued successfully, for the winter to be limited to no more than 1 shot per hole. This worked out quite well and the knock outs have just started after the round robin stage. This has left a nice mix of handicap groups left in the comp. The lowest who entered, off 3 is still in it.

We'll do the same for the summer as well, no more than 1 shot per hole, despite the handicap difference. When you have to give 2 shots on a par 3 which is easily reachable in dry conditions it becomes VERY hard!

Sorry, but this smells of elitism at the very least, if your club has such an issue to limit handicaps in comps maybe you need to look internal.
Also these will also be non-qualifiers as well in the summer.

 

[Jacko_G]

Sandy Scott (+5)shot a gross 65 last year, in a handicap comp, i think he was 3rd he had a 2 though and got the gross
thats why we have a net a gross for all the medals and silver trophies.... not the stablefords though

So he had a net 70!

Which as you said, not a chance of winning despite (I assume) playing his best/almost his best golf.

 

[mikeb4]

We play doubles matchplay full course 0.9 difference. We do well for first 4 or 5 matches when the course is still full length. Then when the course is shortened in January we find it near impossible to win a match against the higher handicappers. Such an advantage for them. Often I birdie a shot hole and still lose or at best get a half. We played 2 under par today against 16 and 20 handicapper and still only managed a half. We both play off 9 and both probably slightly better than 9 both been down to 7 at one point. Been the same for years, win our first 4 lose second 4 matches. I think if the course is shortened should be 0.75 or maybe less 0.4 or 0.5. it's the same with stablefords, often 48-50 points from higher handicappers, playing off single figures it's near impossible to get that many points would need to be 7 or 8 under par. Does anyone club do anything to reduce this massive unfairness Inthe handicapping?

During the winter months its tough for us low handicappers, playing off mats to, though for me its all about the medals let the high boys have their fun in the off season

 

[HomerJSimpson]

I agree that 'winter' conditions tend to favour higher handicappers using their shots.

Course shorter, less rough and greens easier to hold and pretty tricky to 1 putt, but easier to 2 putt.

I guess this is simply the variances of golf. On any given day a course could easily play significantly harder or easier than the course rating - depending on tee placement, width of fairways, pin placements, speed of greens, thickness of rough, overhead conditions etc.

It's fair to say that most 'good' players should prefer 'tougher' conditions - but many single figure handicappers will protect their handicap fiercely and refuse to play in tricky conditions or even play more than a handful of medals a year.

As I alluded to before, our winter knockout (pairs) is an honours board event and so off our whites and a full course. This makes the argument of favouring higher handicappers over shorter courses mute as far as our event is concerned. Indeed holes like our 3rd which has a 180 yard carry (usually into wind) plays very much into the lower handicappers favour (SI 8) as there is no real easy lay up off the tee. As it's matchplay and no handicap at stake all our low players are in it. At the end of the day, it's a knockout event and you play who your are drawn against, play with the shots given or received and get on with it. I don't buy that it favours higher handicappers (especially given the length of the course for the matches) but no-one has griped in the 19th about how unfair it all is in terms of handicaps