WHS & ISV Issues (Please post only if you are a handicap secretary or involved in admin at your club)

[mikejohnchapman]

I guess it depends on what the vendors have interpreted that "attestation" means.

It appears to me that, the way things have been implemented, attestation is simply "I agree with the scores that the player has entered"....whereas the expectation, from your (not unreasonable) point of view, is that attestation should involve the automated cross checking of marker v. player scores and flagging any errors, if the score data is there to support such a thing.

As I understand it in the England Golf app (and in the MasterScoreboard App...front end of HandicapMaster) there is absolutely no compunction on a player who has been nominated as a marker by someone else, for that player to enter his own scores, or those of the player he is marking for, in the App.....so there can be no automated cross checking by the "system". Thinking about it....I'm not sure why would it work this way....its perfectly possible for someone to play in a comp with someone who is not in the comp and for that player to act as their marker.

What was the new "attestation functionality" advertised as being able to do?

This was released by ClubSystems in June 2021 and was the basis for my expectation.

• Enhanced Markers Scoring Example

Connor would select Adam as "Marker" and select Darren as "Marking For", Adam selects Connor as his "Marking For" and Darren as his "Marker", Darren selects Connor as his "Marker" and Adam as his "Marking For".

Connor enters his own scores and Darren's scores, Adam enters his scores and Connors scores, and Darren enters his scores and Adam's scores. At the end of the round, it will validate all of the scores against each other, flag any discrepancies and scores won't be able to be submitted until they all tally up.

 

[Old Skier]

Positive move forward

​

Automated penalties for unsatisfied score intents

With the introduction of WHS, came the greater opportunity for players to submit general play scores.

While it remains the responsibility of the player to ensure they pre-register and submit their scores, we have seen this isn’t always the case. It can leave an unsatisfied score intent in the player’s record for your club's handicap committee to deal with through the application of a penalty score.

We want to make these processes easier for you and reduce your workload while still providing you with oversight. As a result, we have decided to introduce some automation around the submission of general play scores either by the MyEG app or via the club software.

What does this mean for the handicap committee at your club?

You will no longer have to track and chase players for non-submission of scores in general play. Where players fail to submit scores following automated reminder emails, a penalty score will be automatically applied.

Your handicap committee will have full sight of this and reports will be provided for you to see which players have received automatic penalty scores. This will provide you with the ability to adjust or remove the score if required.

The committee can also identify players who pre-registered a round by the MyEG app but subsequently delete it. As part of this process, they are asked to provide a reason for deleting the score and it would be up to the committee to review the Delete Score Intent Report, review the reasons and, should it be required (not a valid reason), apply a penalty score. We would recommend Course Rating + Course Handicap unless the committee wish to apply something different.

What does this mean for the player?

The player is now totally responsible for submitting their score once it has been pre-registered. If they fail to do so without providing the committee with a valid reason, an automated penalty score will be applied.

Should a score be deleted after it has been registered they will have to provide a reason for the deletion and it is then up to the committee if they accept the reason or apply a penalty score.

 

[Swango1980]

Positive move forward

​

Automated penalties for unsatisfied score intents

With the introduction of WHS, came the greater opportunity for players to submit general play scores.

While it remains the responsibility of the player to ensure they pre-register and submit their scores, we have seen this isn’t always the case. It can leave an unsatisfied score intent in the player’s record for your club's handicap committee to deal with through the application of a penalty score.

We want to make these processes easier for you and reduce your workload while still providing you with oversight. As a result, we have decided to introduce some automation around the submission of general play scores either by the MyEG app or via the club software.

What does this mean for the handicap committee at your club?

You will no longer have to track and chase players for non-submission of scores in general play. Where players fail to submit scores following automated reminder emails, a penalty score will be automatically applied.

Your handicap committee will have full sight of this and reports will be provided for you to see which players have received automatic penalty scores. This will provide you with the ability to adjust or remove the score if required.

The committee can also identify players who pre-registered a round by the MyEG app but subsequently delete it. As part of this process, they are asked to provide a reason for deleting the score and it would be up to the committee to review the Delete Score Intent Report, review the reasons and, should it be required (not a valid reason), apply a penalty score. We would recommend Course Rating + Course Handicap unless the committee wish to apply something different.

What does this mean for the player?

The player is now totally responsible for submitting their score once it has been pre-registered. If they fail to do so without providing the committee with a valid reason, an automated penalty score will be applied.

Should a score be deleted after it has been registered they will have to provide a reason for the deletion and it is then up to the committee if they accept the reason or apply a penalty score.

Excellent. I'm no longer a Handicap Sec as I moved clubs, but this is one of the things I suggested could be a good idea to England Golf. I remember also mentioning it somewhere in these forums, and one or 2 ridiculed it. Despite my frustrations at having to constantly check these, and chase players, apparently others said it was a non issue (I suspect it was a non issue because they didn't bother checking). Anyway, good to see they are updating things where they think improvements can be made. Hopefully it works well for those on handicap committees

 

[wjemather]

Positive move forward

​

Automated penalties for unsatisfied score intents

With the introduction of WHS, came the greater opportunity for players to submit general play scores.

While it remains the responsibility of the player to ensure they pre-register and submit their scores, we have seen this isn’t always the case. It can leave an unsatisfied score intent in the player’s record for your club's handicap committee to deal with through the application of a penalty score.

We want to make these processes easier for you and reduce your workload while still providing you with oversight. As a result, we have decided to introduce some automation around the submission of general play scores either by the MyEG app or via the club software.

What does this mean for the handicap committee at your club?

You will no longer have to track and chase players for non-submission of scores in general play. Where players fail to submit scores following automated reminder emails, a penalty score will be automatically applied.

Your handicap committee will have full sight of this and reports will be provided for you to see which players have received automatic penalty scores. This will provide you with the ability to adjust or remove the score if required.

The committee can also identify players who pre-registered a round by the MyEG app but subsequently delete it. As part of this process, they are asked to provide a reason for deleting the score and it would be up to the committee to review the Delete Score Intent Report, review the reasons and, should it be required (not a valid reason), apply a penalty score. We would recommend Course Rating + Course Handicap unless the committee wish to apply something different.

What does this mean for the player?

The player is now totally responsible for submitting their score once it has been pre-registered. If they fail to do so without providing the committee with a valid reason, an automated penalty score will be applied.

Should a score be deleted after it has been registered they will have to provide a reason for the deletion and it is then up to the committee if they accept the reason or apply a penalty score.

All well and good, but (at present and as advertised) it only covers general play.

Until ISVs start recording intents for competition scores and stop pushing through all "0"s as a valid score for handicapping, committees will still have to follow up >90% of unreturned scores - EG obviously do not have sight of these though.

In addition, players will start getting chase emails and penalty scores as a result of buggy software problems, such as ClubV1's PSI which (still!) returns junk if the score submission process is not completed fully.

 

[Old Skier]

All well and good, but (at present and as advertised) it only covers general play.

Until ISVs start recording intents for competition scores and stop pushing through all "0"s as a valid score for handicapping, committees will still have to follow up >90% of unreturned scores - EG obviously do not have sight of these though.

In addition, players will start getting chase emails and penalty scores as a result of buggy software problems, such as ClubV1's PSI which (still!) returns junk if the score submission process is not completed fully.

I might be missing something here. Why would the PSI submission process not be completed fully?

 

[wjemather]

I might be missing something here. Why would the PSI submission process not be completed fully?

I haven't tested or seen it myself but that is what CSIcare diagnosed as the cause after I reported the following happening occasionally... Originally scores were increased by a duplicate 18 holes to make a 36 hole score, but since being "fixed" it now records only 9 actual scores and 9 zeros doubled up for a 36 hole score. Obviously this nonsense gets rejected by WHS, but the intent remains unsatisfied.

 

[fenwayrich]

Positive move forward

​

This detail has not yet reached me. Would you be able to tell me where to download it please?


Automated penalties for unsatisfied score intents

With the introduction of WHS, came the greater opportunity for players to submit general play scores.

While it remains the responsibility of the player to ensure they pre-register and submit their scores, we have seen this isn’t always the case. It can leave an unsatisfied score intent in the player’s record for your club's handicap committee to deal with through the application of a penalty score.

We want to make these processes easier for you and reduce your workload while still providing you with oversight. As a result, we have decided to introduce some automation around the submission of general play scores either by the MyEG app or via the club software.

What does this mean for the handicap committee at your club?

You will no longer have to track and chase players for non-submission of scores in general play. Where players fail to submit scores following automated reminder emails, a penalty score will be automatically applied.

Your handicap committee will have full sight of this and reports will be provided for you to see which players have received automatic penalty scores. This will provide you with the ability to adjust or remove the score if required.

The committee can also identify players who pre-registered a round by the MyEG app but subsequently delete it. As part of this process, they are asked to provide a reason for deleting the score and it would be up to the committee to review the Delete Score Intent Report, review the reasons and, should it be required (not a valid reason), apply a penalty score. We would recommend Course Rating + Course Handicap unless the committee wish to apply something different.

What does this mean for the player?

The player is now totally responsible for submitting their score once it has been pre-registered. If they fail to do so without providing the committee with a valid reason, an automated penalty score will be applied.

Should a score be deleted after it has been registered they will have to provide a reason for the deletion and it is then up to the committee if they accept the reason or apply a penalty score.

 

[nickjdavis]

They state that they recommend that the Committee apply a penalty score of CR+CH for deleted score intents where the committee decide the reason is invalid....are EG going to apply the same automated penalty for Unsatisfied Intents?

It is not clear...but then....you could say that about a lot of the stuff that EG send out.

 

[rulefan]

EG has just informed me that there is a report that will count the number of competition scores in a period vs the number of General play scores in the 2021 Review process

 

[Old Skier]

EG has just informed me that there is a report that will count the number of competition scores in a period vs the number of General play scores in the 2021 Review process

Been available for a while.

 

[rulefan]

Been available for a while.

Yes. I couldn't/can't find the thread but there was a discussion about identifying players with few scores in their record and a question was asked about identifying them. There didn't seem to be a definitive answer at the time about how it could be done so I asked EG to confirm that there was a suitable report available. The reply came this morning.

 

[nickjdavis]

Regarding the automatic penalties for non submission of a score intent....does anyone know how long after the intent is registered that a player has to enter his score before a penalty is applied?

 

[Old Skier]

Regarding the automatic penalties for non submission of a score intent....does anyone know how long after the intent is registered that a player has to enter his score before a penalty is applied?

I presume same day as my understanding you need to be at the location to enter and record the score.

 

[wjemather]

Regarding the automatic penalties for non submission of a score intent....does anyone know how long after the intent is registered that a player has to enter his score before a penalty is applied?

I presume same day as my understanding you need to be at the location to enter and record the score.

I would imagine the same process would be in place as they have for their iGolf subscribers. From their iGolf procedures:

"Non-Return of Scores​

• Any delay in posting a pre-registered score could result in a penalty score being added to a players record.
• Failure to submit a pre-registered score without good reason will result in a penalty score being added.

In the first instance, players will be contacted for failing to submit a pre-registered round. If no valid reason is provided or the score not submitted, a further notification will be sent advising that the player has 48 hours to resolve and/or submit the score.​

Failure to do so would see the addition of a penalty score equal to course rating + course handicap being added to a player’s record.​

If a player needs a subsequent warning for not submitting a pre-registered score, a further period of 48 hours will be given to correct.​

After this time lapse, failure to do so would result in a review by the iGolf Handicap Committee and an additional penalty score added to a player’s record.​

The committee could also decide that the player’s handicap should be frozen, and a formal warning issued.​

A formal warning would result in the withdrawal of the players handicap index."
​

 

[mikejohnchapman]

I haven't tested or seen it myself but that is what CSIcare diagnosed as the cause after I reported the following happening occasionally... Originally scores were increased by a duplicate 18 holes to make a 36 hole score, but since being "fixed" it now records only 9 actual scores and 9 zeros doubled up for a 36 hole score. Obviously this nonsense gets rejected by WHS, but the intent remains unsatisfied.

I've seen this a couple of times but didn't realise where it had come from. Had to delete the round and reload it.

 

[nickjdavis]

I presume same day as my understanding you need to be at the location to enter and record the score.

This isn't my experience....either with the England Golf App or the HandicapMaster/Masterscoreboard App. You can be anywhere and enter a score. The only restriction is that you need to be in the vicinity of the club when using the MyEG app to register your intent to submit a score.

 

[mikejohnchapman]

Positive move forward

​

Automated penalties for unsatisfied score intents

With the introduction of WHS, came the greater opportunity for players to submit general play scores.

While it remains the responsibility of the player to ensure they pre-register and submit their scores, we have seen this isn’t always the case. It can leave an unsatisfied score intent in the player’s record for your club's handicap committee to deal with through the application of a penalty score.

We want to make these processes easier for you and reduce your workload while still providing you with oversight. As a result, we have decided to introduce some automation around the submission of general play scores either by the MyEG app or via the club software.

What does this mean for the handicap committee at your club?

You will no longer have to track and chase players for non-submission of scores in general play. Where players fail to submit scores following automated reminder emails, a penalty score will be automatically applied.

Your handicap committee will have full sight of this and reports will be provided for you to see which players have received automatic penalty scores. This will provide you with the ability to adjust or remove the score if required.

The committee can also identify players who pre-registered a round by the MyEG app but subsequently delete it. As part of this process, they are asked to provide a reason for deleting the score and it would be up to the committee to review the Delete Score Intent Report, review the reasons and, should it be required (not a valid reason), apply a penalty score. We would recommend Course Rating + Course Handicap unless the committee wish to apply something different.

What does this mean for the player?

The player is now totally responsible for submitting their score once it has been pre-registered. If they fail to do so without providing the committee with a valid reason, an automated penalty score will be applied.

Should a score be deleted after it has been registered they will have to provide a reason for the deletion and it is then up to the committee if they accept the reason or apply a penalty score.

Is this all going to work on the England Golf system regardless of ISV?

 

[Old Skier]

Is this all going to work on the England Golf system regardless of ISV?

Hopefully this answered the question:


We want to make these processes easier for you and reduce your workload while still providing you with oversight. As a result, we have decided to introduce some automation around the submission of general play scores either by the MyEG app or via the club software.

 

[mikejohnchapman]

Hopefully this answered the question:


We want to make these processes easier for you and reduce your workload while still providing you with oversight. As a result, we have decided to introduce some automation around the submission of general play scores either by the MyEG app or via the club software.

I saw that but if they are going to tell Club Systems to do this it's not going to happen soon I fear. The Unsatisfied Rounds appear against the player on the EG Platform, this is also where you process a penalty score, so I wondered if they were going to do it at the centre and then just update the local record in the usual way.

 

[nickjdavis]

I registered a score intent last Friday and have deliberately not uploaded my score to see how the new process might work. Six days on and there is no sign of any automated penalties being applied, neither have I had any warnings/chasing emails.