Old Skier
Tour Winner
That’s made my day
WHS - Handicap Allowances Question
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That’s made my day
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Deleted member 15344
Guest
We have the same issue right now , unable to link the Ladies Red tee to WHS - and there appears to be zero traction on getting it sorted at the moment .
Old Skier
Tour Winner
With a minimum of 7 days before you even get an acknowledgment email it’s not traction that’s needed, it’s someone to get a grip on the project.
rulefan
Tour Winner
I understand they have a lot of such examples of this problem. Many but by no means all caused by clubs not providing the correct information when requested. My club was one such, due to a change of manager. I am watching closely because my wife is one affected.
It is taking time because virtually all have to be dealt with individually.
rulie
Head Pro
muddle through
phrasal verb of muddle
- cope in a more or less satisfactory way despite lack of expertise, planning, or equipment.
"we don't have an ultimate ambition; we just muddle through"
Colin L
Tour Winner
I sent much of my working life learning that administration was often a matter of sorting out the effects of mistakes. This afternoon I've sorted the handicap indexes of two of my fellow club members who had disappeared off the WHS record during the transition but I'm not able to jump up and down and blame Scottish Golf. They were both new players last year and we had overlooked assigning their identification numbers for the central handicap database. (When I say we overlooked it, I probably mean I overlooked it.) In good 1984 style, we had created non-persons.
bunkerblaster
Member
The vast majority of golfers will only become aware in the next couple of weeks that their playing handicaps are 95% of their course handicaps. It needs to be hammered home that a golfer is responsible for putting their Course Handicap on the card. Its a given that things will sometimes go wrong. From an above post, a Differential is calculated from playing handicap. So, our golfer with CH of 15, by mistake (for whatever reason, misread of table or knocking 5% off for PH) puts a CH of 14 on his card for a medal round. So he gets scored off 14 no DQ. He played off 14 CH but his PH should now be 13. Will the ISV software pick this up?
Pre registered social rounds: Stableford, as you do, so you agree before the round no allowances. But in the 19th you know the software will knock 5% off overnight. You might then get "but if we played to 95% I would have won". Ans: "Yes but you are still paying" ?
Are we going to be lenient by accepting an accurate CH placed in a PH box?
Pre registered social rounds: Stableford, as you do, so you agree before the round no allowances. But in the 19th you know the software will knock 5% off overnight. You might then get "but if we played to 95% I would have won". Ans: "Yes but you are still paying" ?
Are we going to be lenient by accepting an accurate CH placed in a PH box?
Swango1980
Well-known member
In terms of your 1st question, this is something I asked and I'm unsure I got a definitive answer. However, I believe that if the player put a CH of 14, they actually would be DQ. It is too low and it would impact the number of shots they get, as PH would be 13 if CH was 14. The fact that they took off 14 as a playing handicap after is irrelevant, as the player has no responsibility to work out the correct PH. It would just be deemed they made a mistake in assuming 95% of their CH was 14, when it would be 13 based on what they put on the card. To me, it is a bit of a minefield, and I'll await to see what happens when comments on this forum come in as to players getting DQed or not for this sort of situation.
For pre-registered social rounds, Playing Handicap of 95% is not required once submitting for handicap. There is no competition of leaderboard, so a player simply plays to their course handicap. If they happen to be playing with mates at the time, or in some sort of unofficial roll up, it is up to that group to correctly apply the 95%. If that is done incorrectly, then the problem is in their court. The software will not come back the next day and give the player a score based on a 95% allocation
DickInShorts
Newbie
I think some clubs have taken the sensible step of having 3 boxes on their cards:
HI
CH
PH(or Strokes Rec’d)
HI
CH
PH(or Strokes Rec’d)
rulefan
Tour Winner
The differential is calculated from the Course Handicap.
The CH must be on the card. The PH is an option.
rosecott
Money List Winner
Do you have reference source for a DQ for entering a CH on the scorecard which is too low?
Swango1980
Well-known member
Apologies, you are correct. I misread the situation, and was defining a situation where the course handicap would be too HIGH on the card. I must be looking at too many numbers today and they are just merging into the background.
Just a related question. A card has boxes for Index, Course and Playing Handicaps. A player simply puts their Playing Handicap in, as given to them from the app of PSI when signing in. Do they get disqualified for having nothing under course handicap? If they are canny, they might technically argue that they thought they were putting in their course handicap, but just put it in the wrong box. Of course, that is very unlikely to be the case, as it could be 1 lower than their course handicap and seems fairly obvious they simply put their Playing Handicap directly onto the card, and didn't bother with course handicap. But, there is nothing in the rules to say the Course Handicap MUST be in the correct box.
rulefan
Tour Winner
If it is clear that the figure is simply in the wrong box then no penalty but if it is not clear then penalty.
Swango1980
Well-known member
Not sure how it would be clear, maybe subjective. Imagine a player with a 36 course handicap. Playing Handicap is 34. They hand in a scorecard, Index box is blank, Course Handicap box in blank, Playing Handicap box says 34. Disqualified or not?
bunkerblaster
Member
Good point. I will take a punt, Rule 3 no DQ. But as we are being lenient regarding boxes completed, the golfer has a CH of 34 and a PH of 32. Golfer is responsible for putting CH on his card, wrong CH apply Rule 3.
Swango1980
Well-known member
So, you'd manually change his course handicap in the system to 34 from 36, so he only gets 32 shots in his competition score (because, presumably he will not reduce his handicap when he enters his score electronically)? If he asks why that has been done, he'd be told because he put only one handicap on the card of 34, and you assumed he put his course handicap in wrong box. He says no, I put my playing handicap in, that the system indicated I was. At that point, you disqualify him because he has admitted to not putting a course handicap in at all? Whichever way you look at it, I can see avenues for it to get messy either way.
I'm sure some competition secretaries will be very lenient, especially to begin with. Others will strictly DQ a player if no Course Handicap is shown, and will back this up that there is no evidence that the correct course handicap is anywhere else on the card. Under the rules, I suspect the strict competition secretary is acting correctly, if there really is no evidence the course handicap appears anywhere. Either way, I can see a lot of inconsistency with this, as individuals interpret what the rules require and what loopholes there may or may not be.
Old Skier
Tour Winner
We are sending out on every start sheet the requirements to put the CH in with the PH being optional . The will also be informed of the consequences.
Now we know the best way to keep a secret is to publish in plain site so I’m not holding my breath.
rulie
Head Pro
Let me play devil's advocate here. See below for Interpretation 3.3b/2. So, if I return my score on a scrap of paper with 18 individual hole scores identified correctly by hole number, signed by my marker and I sign it, "I. Droverfarther, 16", with 16 being my course handicap, I don't believe that I can be disqualified. The course handicap only needs to be on the "card", not in any specific box or location.
3.3b/2 – Information Put in Wrong Location on Scorecard May Still Be Acceptable
Although all requirements of Rule 3.3b must be met before a scorecard is returned, there is no penalty if the correct information is mistakenly entered on the scorecard in a place other than where it was expected to be, except that each hole score on the scorecard must be identifiable to the correct hole (see 3.3b(3)/1).
3.3b/2 – Information Put in Wrong Location on Scorecard May Still Be Acceptable
Although all requirements of Rule 3.3b must be met before a scorecard is returned, there is no penalty if the correct information is mistakenly entered on the scorecard in a place other than where it was expected to be, except that each hole score on the scorecard must be identifiable to the correct hole (see 3.3b(3)/1).
rulefan
Tour Winner
How would you rule if CH & PH were transposed?
Swango1980
Well-known member
Yes, but the scenario above is that a player put their Playing Handicap on the card, and completely left the Course handicap off. So, technically they'd be disqualified. They'd have to effectively lie, and say that the Playing Handicap on their card was their Course Handicap (they may not be lying, but highly unlikely they'd accidentally put the wrong course handicap on the card in the box for Playing Handicap, that just so happens to be the correct Playing handicap)
If their course handicap was 20, Playing Handicap of 19, and only the 19 appeared in the Playing Handicap box, one could argue that their Course Handicap does not appear on the card, DQ. If they put 20 in the Playing Handicap, one could argue they put the correct Course Handicap on the card, but in the wrong box.
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