WHS - Handicap Allowances Question

[apj0524]

I have just been reading through the WHS CONGU Rules of Golf, particularly Handicap Allowance I not sure if 4BBB has changed to the CONGU Manual 2019 which reads

Back marker to concede strokes to the other 3 players based on 90% of the difference between the full handicaps, so I have been interpreting rightly orwrongly as Player is 10 hcp Player B 20 hcp Player C 15hcp and Player D 11 hcp, then Player A no shots, Player B 9 shots (90%/10) Player C 6 shots 90%/5) and Player D 1 shot (90%/1)

In the CONGU - Rules of Handicapping 1.1 they provide an example where for a 4BBB Comp Playing handicaps are Player A 10 Player B 18 Player C 27 and Player D 39 then explains Player A Playing handicap is 10 is playing off 9 (90%/10) then the shots Player B receives is (90%/18 = 16 - 9 = 7 Shots given and so forth.

If I have not miss-understood the original shots given in 4BBB this is going to be interesting next summer in the knockout comps

 

[rulie]

In my opinion, there is a conflict between those two methods of calculation (even though, in this case, the results are the same). Again, imo, find the difference between full handicaps (low plays off zero), then apply the allowance.

 

[Jono_3]

My understanding is that it's 90% of course handicap (under WHS), which then becomes playing handicap. So assuming that your examples above are course handicaps (rather than Handicap Indexes) then yes, it's 90% from the lowest handicap golfer.

It has been like that in matchplay for a long time though hasn't it? albeit with CONGU handicaps. I don't know what it is for for 4bbb strokeplay without looking it up.

 

[jim8flog]

I have just been reading through the WHS CONGU Rules of Golf, particularly Handicap Allowance I not sure if 4BBB has changed to the CONGU Manual 2019 which reads

Back marker to concede strokes to the other 3 players based on 90% of the difference between the full handicaps, so I have been interpreting rightly orwrongly as Player is 10 hcp Player B 20 hcp Player C 15hcp and Player D 11 hcp, then Player A no shots, Player B 9 shots (90%/10) Player C 6 shots 90%/5) and Player D 1 shot (90%/1)

In the CONGU - Rules of Handicapping 1.1 they provide an example where for a 4BBB Comp Playing handicaps are Player A 10 Player B 18 Player C 27 and Player D 39 then explains Player A Playing handicap is 10 is playing off 9 (90%/10) then the shots Player B receives is (90%/18 = 16 - 9 = 7 Shots given and so forth.

If I have not miss-understood the original shots given in 4BBB this is going to be interesting next summer in the knockout comps

You have read it correctly

The differential is worked out from Playing Handicaps
In singles Playing Handicap = Course Handicap

pairs 90% singles 100%

 

[apj0524]

You have read it correctly

The differential is worked out from Playing Handicaps
In singles Playing Handicap = Course Handicap

pairs 90% singles 100%

Thanks for your reply, so is this a change and have I been using the handicap allowance incorrectly, as when playing 4 BB Match Play we were taking the 90% of the difference off the lowest handicap players, not off 90% of 90% the handicap of the player with the lowest handicap ??

 

[Colin L]

There's no change. The wording of the CONGU is 90% of the difference between the full handicaps. To calculate 90% of a difference, you first have to calculate the value of the difference - in this instance, the difference between the higher full handicaps and the lowest.

 

[Swango1980]

I have just been reading through the WHS CONGU Rules of Golf, particularly Handicap Allowance I not sure if 4BBB has changed to the CONGU Manual 2019 which reads

Back marker to concede strokes to the other 3 players based on 90% of the difference between the full handicaps, so I have been interpreting rightly orwrongly as Player is 10 hcp Player B 20 hcp Player C 15hcp and Player D 11 hcp, then Player A no shots, Player B 9 shots (90%/10) Player C 6 shots 90%/5) and Player D 1 shot (90%/1)

In the CONGU - Rules of Handicapping 1.1 they provide an example where for a 4BBB Comp Playing handicaps are Player A 10 Player B 18 Player C 27 and Player D 39 then explains Player A Playing handicap is 10 is playing off 9 (90%/10) then the shots Player B receives is (90%/18 = 16 - 9 = 7 Shots given and so forth.

If I have not miss-understood the original shots given in 4BBB this is going to be interesting next summer in the knockout comps

Every person I have every played with, in 15 years of golf (and a lot of matchplay, against a lot of different clubs in leagues) has always taken 90% the difference from the lowest handicapper. Mathematically, this is the same as taking 90% of all 4 handicaps and taking full difference from there (you are just doing the 90% calculation at a different point).

HOWEVER, the problem arises due to rounding. 5, 9, 14, 19 handicappers play a match (values in brackets are number of shots received):

Method 1 (commonly used in my experience): 90% the difference = 9 handicapper gets 3.6 (4), 14 handicapper gets 8.1 (8), 19 handicapper gets 12.6 (13)

Method 2 (as described): 90% of all = 5 handicapper plays off 5 (0) 9 handicapper plays off 8 (3), 14 handicapper gets 13 (8), 19 handicapper gets 17 (12)

So, due to rounding, both methods provide different results, with Method 1 giving an extra shot to 2 of the higher handicappers. I'm assuming Method 2 is the official method. How many have assumed Method 1?

 

[rulefan]

The way I read the words from the manuals

CONGU
Handicap
A = 5, B = 9, C = 14, D = 19
Calculate difference
A = 0, B = 4, C = 9, D = 14
Calculate 90%
A = 0*90% = 0 = 0
B = 4*90% = 3.6 = 4
C = 9*90% = 8.1 =8
D = 14*90% = 12.6 = 13
Play off
A = 0, B = 4, C = 8, D = 13

WHS
Course Handicap
A = 5, B = 9, C = 14, D = 19
Calculate Playing Handicaps
A = 5*90% = 4.5 = 5
B = 9*90% = 8.1 = 8
C = 14*90% = 12.6 =13
D = 19*90% = 17.1 = 17
Calculate difference & play off
A = 0, B = 3, C = 8, D = 12

?

 

[Swango1980]

The way I read the words from the manuals

CONGU
Handicap
A = 5, B = 9, C = 14, D = 19
Calculate difference
A = 0, B = 4, C = 9, D = 14
Calculate 90%
A = 0*90% = 0 = 0
B = 4*90% = 3.6 = 4
C = 9*90% = 8.1 =8
D = 14*90% = 12.6 = 13
Play off
A = 0, B = 4, C = 8, D = 13

WHS
Course Handicap
A = 5, B = 9, C = 14, D = 19
Calculate Playing Handicaps
A = 5*90% = 4.5 = 5
B = 9*90% = 8.1 = 8
C = 14*90% = 12.6 =13
D = 19*90% = 17.1 = 17
Calculate difference & play off
A = 0, B = 3, C = 8, D = 12

?

Yes, now having gone into the CONGU Manual, it does state:

"Back marker to concede strokes to the other 3 players based on 90% of the difference between full handicaps"

So, I guess the methodology simply changes between Congu and WHS? I wonder how many golfers will pick up on that come November?

 

[jim8flog]

Yes, now having gone into the CONGU Manual, it does state:

"Back marker to concede strokes to the other 3 players based on 90% of the difference between full handicaps"

So, I guess the methodology simply changes between Congu and WHS? I wonder how many golfers will pick up on that come November?

That depends on whether or not they read the notice boards where I play. There is a specific notice on how to calculate allowances next to the winter knockout list, one on the WHS notice board and another on the competitions notice board.

 

[rulefan]

That depends on whether or not they read the notice boards where I play. There is a specific notice on how to calculate allowances next to the winter knockout list, one on the WHS notice board and another on the competitions notice board.

Are they both the same?

 

[Colin L]

Just to add to the general gaiety of nations, if you want to be mathematically correct, you should in the first place, I understand, be calculating 90% of the full value of your course handicap not the rounded up or down full number. And the reason I understand it? Because that is what Scottish Golf has opted to do. Here is the full text of G6.2a of the CONGU guidance:

For some National Associations, it is recommended for practical application that the Course Handicap used in the Playing Handicap calculation is the rounded integer value and not the full calculated CH value, as this is not accessible to the player without access to the complete calculation. This application will be consistent across all competition formats including 9-hole and multi- tee events. Compared to using the full calculated CH value, this recommendation will only affect the outcome of the competition results, having no effect on the outcome of the calculation of the players handicap.
For other National Associations, the Course Handicap used in the Playing Handicap calculation will be the full calculated CH value, as it is expected that the player will always have ready access to an App or other software to generate the Course Handicap rather than be expected to perform the Playing Handicap calculation themselves.
Committees and players should follow the advice of their National Association in the use of the integer or full calculated Course Handicap in the calculation of the Playing Handicap. For GB&I, England, Wales and Ireland will be using the Rounded Course Handicap, whilst Scotland will be using the full calculated Course Handicap.

As said, we will be dependent on accessing our playing handicaps on a device. There is no way players about to start their four ball match are going to stand at the first tee and work out in their heads who is getting how many strokes on that basis. In social golf I expect we'll just carry on doing what we are used to doing.

 

[rulefan]

Just to add to the general gaiety of nations, if you want to be mathematically correct, you should in the first place, I understand, be calculating 90% of the full value of your course handicap not the rounded up or down full number. And the reason I understand it? Because that is what Scottish Golf has opted to do. Here is the full text of G6.2a of the CONGU guidance:

For some National Associations, it is recommended for practical application that the Course Handicap used in the Playing Handicap calculation is the rounded integer value and not the full calculated CH value, as this is not accessible to the player without access to the complete calculation. This application will be consistent across all competition formats including 9-hole and multi- tee events. Compared to using the full calculated CH value, this recommendation will only affect the outcome of the competition results, having no effect on the outcome of the calculation of the players handicap.
For other National Associations, the Course Handicap used in the Playing Handicap calculation will be the full calculated CH value, as it is expected that the player will always have ready access to an App or other software to generate the Course Handicap rather than be expected to perform the Playing Handicap calculation themselves.
Committees and players should follow the advice of their National Association in the use of the integer or full calculated Course Handicap in the calculation of the Playing Handicap. For GB&I, England, Wales and Ireland will be using the Rounded Course Handicap, whilst Scotland will be using the full calculated Course Handicap.

As said, we will be dependent on accessing our playing handicaps on a device. There is no way players about to start their four ball match are going to stand at the first tee and work out in their heads who is getting how many strokes on that basis. In social golf I expect we'll just carry on doing what we are used to doing.

It would seem that there is a different version of the RoH for Scotland. My hardcopy from England Golf does not include that.
I have had confirmation though that the CH is the rounded integer. Perhaps our clubs or players can't afford the technology.

 

[Colin L]

I think the only differences amongst the constituent countries are this one for Scotland and Ireland's trialling of accepting matchplay and four ball scores but I'm not absolutely certain.

 

[rulefan]

I think the only differences amongst the constituent countries are this one for Scotland and Ireland's trialling of accepting matchplay and four ball scores but I'm not absolutely certain.

Colin
Do you have hardcopy of the RoH? If so, is it identified as Scotland only? If not, where did the text come from?

 

[Colin L]

It's from CONGU Guidance on the WHS rules of handicapping as applied within GB&I
https://www.congu.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/WHSDocs/Handicapping-Advice.pdf

G6.2a on Page 18

 

[mikejohnchapman]

The way I read the words from the manuals

CONGU
Handicap
A = 5, B = 9, C = 14, D = 19
Calculate difference
A = 0, B = 4, C = 9, D = 14
Calculate 90%
A = 0*90% = 0 = 0
B = 4*90% = 3.6 = 4
C = 9*90% = 8.1 =8
D = 14*90% = 12.6 = 13
Play off
A = 0, B = 4, C = 8, D = 13

WHS
Course Handicap
A = 5, B = 9, C = 14, D = 19
Calculate Playing Handicaps
A = 5*90% = 4.5 = 5
B = 9*90% = 8.1 = 8
C = 14*90% = 12.6 =13
D = 19*90% = 17.1 = 17
Calculate difference & play off
A = 0, B = 3, C = 8, D = 12

?

Could you point me to this in GUIDANCE ON THE WHS RULES OF HANDICAPPING AS APPLIED WITHIN GB&I please?

 

[rulefan]

Could you point me to this in GUIDANCE ON THE WHS RULES OF HANDICAPPING AS APPLIED WITHIN GB&I please?

Rules of Handicapping
Rule 6.2a which refers to a player's Playing Handicap
then
Appendix C/2 Example 2 which tells us the individual player's Playing Handicap has already been determined.

 

[NearHull]

I have a HI of 10.0. The Course Rating chart gives me 12 off our whites and 11 off yellows. As I understand it , I’ll play a Comp Medal at 95% of 12, ie 11.4 rounded down to 11. I’ll also play a Comp Stableford off yellows at 95% of 11, ie 10.45 rounded down to 10. I think I’m correct - am I?

i know the software will provide all this in the background when we book on for a comp, but I can see problems when it’s a ‘friendly’ Stableford non- comp. Working to two decimal places is novel.

 

[Foxholer]

I have a HI of 10.0. The Course Rating chart gives me 12 off our whites and 11 off yellows. As I understand it , I’ll play a Comp Medal at 95% of 12, ie 11.4 rounded down to 11. I’ll also play a Comp Stableford off yellows at 95% of 11, ie 10.45 rounded down to 10. I think I’m correct - am I?

i know the software will provide all this in the background when we book on for a comp, but I can see problems when it’s a ‘friendly’ Stableford non- comp. Working to two decimal places is novel.

Re the Italicised bit..there shouid be a resource available (computer or paper) that provides your up-to-date Index, though I'm not fully 'intimate' with the actual WHS procedures, either generally of at specific clubs. My knowledge of the system is based on observations of the calculation workings of the USGA system - in NZ and from some time ago. I believe NZ followed USGA fully. I know that Aus had its own 'hybrid' but was 99% USGA. I also remember that USGA had a 'cutoff' where all results (including any 'conditions adjustments' from comps) where finalised, HIs recalculated and released. Can't remember whether this was a fortnightly or weekly exercise - I think it was fortnightly. Until then, results and adjustments were 'provisional'. My knowledge of the administration side of USGA is sketchy and others on here are far more intimate of how it will work in WHS!
Re the bold bit. The number of decimal places is not significant! If the first decimal place is 5 or more, then it's rounded up; if 4 or less, rounded down.

Oh...And...Your calculation is correct.