WHS doesn't work

[Voyager EMH]

And, if you were to play off scratch (let us say in your club champs), would you have an opinion of one course being harder than the other?

Then 4 over at Augusta would be a much better score than level par at my home course of the yellows.
My opinion would very likely be that neither course is significantly harder than the other, if I were a scratch golfer.

 

[jim8flog]

try playing Augusta and then claim one course isn't harder than another. the don't hold the majors on the local muni.....

The members do not play Augusta with the same set up e.g. length of holes and greens speeds as when it is set up for the Masters

They hold the US open at Pebble Beach and that could be described as a municipal, it is open to anyone to play, Likewise St Andrews.

 

[Voyager EMH]

I've just been reading Wiki and others and apparently Augusta championship tees has never had an official rating. The CR has been estimated at anything from 76.2 to 78.1.
So edit my above posts to 12 over and 5 over at Augusta to being very likely to be much better than 6 over and level at my home course off the yellows.

 

[Slab]

If I gave the worlds 66 million golfers a hammer and asked them to put 18 nails into a piece of wood, we’d see a helluva lot of different results

Some would do well, others not so much but it’d at least reflect their ability to do the task… some wouldn’t care enough to use it as it was designed, some wouldn’t use it at all, some might want to use their old hammer, some might be put off by the storm/wind outside and perform worse than expected, some would seek advice & practice first & perform better than expected, some just wouldn’t understand the task, some would claim its the wrong kind of hammer for that nail & maybe even some would deliberately do it poorly

None of that means the hammer “doesn’t work”

 

[Swango1980]

Then 4 over at Augusta would be a much better score than level par at my home course of the yellows.
My opinion would very likely be that neither course is significantly harder than the other, if I were a scratch golfer.

I think this is a first. Augusta is no harder than any other course you may play at. News to me that, when playing my old course off yellows, 5500 yards, it was just as difficult as Augusta

At any rate, given you still think off golf courses difficulty against handicaps, I'll entertain that debate. I still don't agree that no course is any harder or easier than any other. For 2 reasons:

1. Pretty much all of us are handicapped golfers. We have all played courses that we feel are easy and hard. Even those of us who fully understand the handicap system. There will be courses that most handicapped golfers will find hard in general, find easy in general, and then everything in between.
2. A players handicap isn't based on an average day score. It is based on the average of your best set of scores. So, unless you are having a good day, an average day or poor day will see you shoot worse than handicap. At a tough course, the range of those scores will be more spread, so on average you'll shoot worse (relative to handicap) than at an easy course. An average score at an easy course might not be too bad. An average score at Augusta will be poor, and a poor score terrible. Augusta would eat you alive if you are not absolutely on it. Because it is tough.

 

[MiurasFan]

it really isnt

For me, it is! As a higher value indicates what additional percentage of my handicap I would require, on average, I would need to play to CR + HI. If somebody else wants to measure 'difficulty' simply as the number of shots required to play it, then CR might be a better metric. Someone who wants to measure, or compare, difficulty on how many total shots are required would need both CR and Slope (to determine the total number of shots they would require).
So while it depends on how 'difficulty' is defined, I believe it's pretty well recognised that Par is certainly not a good metric of difficulty.

 

[Swango1980]

For me, it is! As a higher value indicates what additional percentage of my handicap I would require, on average, I would need to play to CR + HI. If somebody else wants to measure 'difficulty' simply as the number of shots required to play it, then CR might be a better metric. Someone who wants to measure, or compare, difficulty on how many total shots are required would need both CR and Slope (to determine the total number of shots they would require).
So while it depends on how 'difficulty' is defined, I believe it's pretty well recognised that Par is certainly not a good metric of difficulty.

As I mentioned above though, on average is not correct. Your Handicap is not based on your average score. So, even with handicaps in mind (which was not part of the original point Toby made), your average score will be worse at some courses compared to others.

 

[Crazyface]

try playing Augusta and then claim one course isn't harder than another. the don't hold the majors on the local muni.....

Maybe, but the only thing that makes the majors harder is the length of the course. This is why Augusta keep having to move tees further back. I'd put more bunkers in at 300 yards and narrow the fairways on the pros landing zones. No need to lengthen then. They'd have to use a 3/5 wood lay up and then the greens would do their bit .

 

[Voyager EMH]

I think this is a first. Augusta is no harder than any other course you may play at. News to me that, when playing my old course off yellows, 5500 yards, it was just as difficult as Augusta

At any rate, given you still think off golf courses difficulty against handicaps, I'll entertain that debate. I still don't agree that no course is any harder or easier than any other. For 2 reasons:

1. Pretty much all of us are handicapped golfers. We have all played courses that we feel are easy and hard. Even those of us who fully understand the handicap system. There will be courses that most handicapped golfers will find hard in general, find easy in general, and then everything in between.
2. A players handicap isn't based on an average day score. It is based on the average of your best set of scores. So, unless you are having a good day, an average day or poor day will see you shoot worse than handicap. At a tough course, the range of those scores will be more spread, so on average you'll shoot worse (relative to handicap) than at an easy course. An average score at an easy course might not be too bad. An average score at Augusta will be poor, and a poor score terrible. Augusta would eat you alive if you are not absolutely on it. Because it is tough.

About 18 months ago I played in a comp at Luffenham Heath. For those who have your way of thinking this is a tough course.
I had put in some good scores in the run up and on the day my CH and PH were 3.
I shot 10 over par or 29 points for stableford thinkers.
My differential was 5.6 and just outside my best 8. It did kick in as my 8th best before dropping off. (PCC of +1 on the day)
If I had been merely one shot better it would have remained in my best 8 for its duration and given me a cut on the day.
There was a comp off the yellows on my home club on that day. I would have needed to shoot 4 over par in order to be better than 10 over at Luffenham.
Luffenham did "eat me alive" on 3 holes, but I managed two doubles and a lengthy putt for a bogey on them. 5 over for the other 15 with some one-putt pars.
This experience was responsible for forming a large part of my view.
"Tough" courses in relation to par are not necessarily any more difficult for a handicap golfer to play to, or around, handicap.

 

[MiurasFan]

As I mentioned above though, on average is not correct. Your Handicap is not based on your average score. So, even with handicaps in mind (which was not part of the original point Toby made), your average score will be worse at some courses compared to others.

Read my post again! I don't measure 'average score'
How about the way a serious (right-handed) slicer measures difficulty - on the number of dogleg lefts that will cause trouble for him!

 

[Swango1980]

Maybe, but the only thing that makes the majors harder is the length of the course. This is why Augusta keep having to move tees further back. I'd put more bunkers in at 300 yards and narrow the fairways on the pros landing zones. No need to lengthen then. They'd have to use a 3/5 wood lay up and then the greens would do their bit .

Are you sure that is the only thing?

Obviously I've never played a Major course. However, as I understand it, Augusta is very difficult, largely due to the design of the greens.

US Open courses are very difficult as they usually make the rough extremely penal.

There are some short courses that can play very tough. I think Pebble Beach is relatively short for a course professionals play on, but can be made to play very tough? So, I don't think it is true to say that length is the only factor.

 

[sweaty sock]

If the course is shorter you can not be playing all "the same shots" you will be hitting a shorter club for your first shot and for the vast majority if us that means you are more likely to be in the desired position for your second shot.

Which is true, and par 3s will be shorter, but Id bet most UK courses the difference between tees is not regularly more than 1 or 2 clubs.

We've done the accuracy of a 3 wood compared with a driver many times before....

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I don't know what the CR and SR of Augusta from the championship tees are.
Lets say that they are 75.5 and 145 to give an example.
My HI is currently 4.5.
With the above ratings I would need to shoot an 11 over par 83 to beat my 8th best score and reduce my HI by a touch.
6 over par off the yellows at my home course is a poorer score than the above and would not lower my handicap.
I would not say that either course is significantly easier or harder for me to achieve my goal.

Read Bobby Jones on his objectives for Augusta as set out by Clifford Roberts in Jones’ book Golf is My Game. Relatively straightforward and enjoyable for handicappers across the spectrum; made difficult for the pros by the very specific pin positions Jones designed the greens for, that means the pros have to play each hole very strategically according to pin position on the day. But for the normal handicap golfer, straightforward playable and enjoyable.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

We’ve remodelled the last 100yds of our long par 5 14th. Most of us can’t reach in two, but the low guys and longer hitters would very often decide to go for it as the last 100yds was pretty benign and quite low risk hazard-wise. With the remodelling the last 100yds contains a lot more risk elements.

Speaking with one of our low guys recently his view was that the changes will most likely have made the hole easier for him. How come? What he was talking about was that whereas previously he had a bit of a decision to make…the risk is now so much higher his default is going to be to lay up to about 80-100yd and short of the trouble - the decision making has been made easier for him. And doing so he’ll be looking to put the ball close in three most of the time - and so he reckons a lot fewer eagles, but a lot more birdies.

What makes one hole or a course easier than another can be multi-facetted.

 

[wjemather]

try playing Augusta and then claim one course isn't harder than another. the don't hold the majors on the local muni.....

Bethpage Black.

 

[Deleted member 29109]

Bethpage Black.

Torrey pines and Harding Park too!

 

[Swango1980]

Bethpage Black.

Indeed. I'm sure there are always exceptions to the rule (in relation to local courses). Interestingly, I just googled Bethpage Black, to find a summary by USA Today:

"The Black Course at Bethpage State Park is an extremely difficult course, recommended only for highly skilled golfers.

The public course is strong enough to have hosted the U.S. Open twice and now gets a PGA Championship.

In short, Bethpage Black is a beast"

Another article on Torrey Pines:

If the goal was to make Torrey Pines’ South tough, then job well done. It is very difficult: Extraordinary length, narrow fairways, deep rough, punishing bunkers and multi-tiered greens make it one of the toughest layouts anywhere

Are these articles written by individuals? Yes. Is difficulty subjective? Yes. However, I'd be pretty comfortable to assume that the views written about these 2 particular courses would be shared by the vast majority of golfers. Just another couple of examples, other than Augusta discussed before, in which it seems fairly obvious and simple to class a course as very difficult, compared to most of the courses we play socially, off the yellow tees.

 

[Deleted member 15717]

nowhere else to really post this....but this made me chuckle. A thread.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1626009535126159361

 

[MiurasFan]

Augusta National is 67.7,118 for members tees, 76.2,148 for Masters setup. Pin positions used for The Masters tournament are not generally used for Member setup - something unique to The Masters but a deliberate part of the concept and design.

 

[D-S]

Augusta National is 67.7,118 for members tees, 76.2,148 for Masters setup. Pin positions used for The Masters tournament are not generally used for Member setup - something unique to The Masters but a deliberate part of the concept and design.

That interesting. Augusta National is not listed in the USGA database - are these estimates?