WHS doesn't work

[RichA]

You keep demonstrating you miss the point. Why do you keep talking about a handicap golfer, when we are talking purely about the difficulty of one course over another. It is why I used a professional golf tournament as an example, where handicaps are irrelevant.

I think we'll just leave it at that

Whereas extreme examples of course set up for the most elite professional golfers on the planet who don't have handicaps are totally relevant to a discussion about WHS.

 

[Voyager EMH]

You keep demonstrating you miss the point. Why do you keep talking about a handicap golfer, when we are talking purely about the difficulty of one course over another. It is why I used a professional golf tournament as an example, where handicaps are irrelevant.

I think we'll just leave it at that

As you have asked me a question, it is only polite for me to answer rather than ignore.

Answer: Because I am a handicap golfer and I view the relative difficulty/easiness of courses as a handicap golfer.

 

[MiurasFan]

I believe what was said was correct, in that they meant Slope doesn't tell you that one course is more difficult than the other.

Slope tells you the relative difficulty between higher and lower handicapped golfers. But, it doesn't tell you which course is more difficult. A course with a higher slope is not necessarily more difficult than one with a lower slope.

Sorry, I missed this reply, but caught your conversation with Voyager! Basically, I side with Voyager, but can see what you are getting at! It really depends what the definition of 'difficulty' is! If it's simply how many shots it will take a scratch player to get around, then an, admittedly unrealistic, 8000 yard all par 5 course with a CR of 81 and Slope of 100 is going to be hard (though probably very boring!) However, if it's 'how difficult for a bogey (or any handicap) player compared to a scratch one' - which, to me, is much better indicator of difficulty, then slope absolutely defines that! And a Par 68; CR 72 course could easily be deemed harder than a Par 72 CR 68 course (irrespective of Slope)! As a handicap player, I equate difficulty with Slope, so would disagree with your last statement above - as I would likely need more shots to play to CR than a lower handicap player would. Oh, and to complete the example, what about that 8000 yd course if it was Par 74 CR 76 Slope 125!

 

[Swango1980]

Sorry, I missed this reply, but caught your conversation with Voyager! Basically, I side with Voyager, but can see what you are getting at! It really depends what the definition of 'difficulty' is! If it's simply how many shots it will take a scratch player to get around, then an, admittedly unrealistic, 8000 yard all par 5 course with a CR of 81 and Slope of 100 is going to be hard (though probably very boring!) However, if it's 'how difficult for a bogey (or any handicap) player compared to a scratch one' - which, to me, is much better indicator of difficulty, then slope absolutely defines that! And a Par 68; CR 72 course could easily be deemed harder than a Par 72 CR 68 course (irrespective of Slope)! As a handicap player, I equate difficulty with Slope, so would disagree with your last statement above - as I would likely need more shots to play to CR than a lower handicap player would. Oh, and to complete the example, what about that 8000 yd course if it was Par 74 CR 76 Slope 125!

Yet, if you were a very low handicapper, a high slope course could potentially be very easy for you, but difficult for a bogey golfer. You could then go to a low slope course, and find it a lot more difficult than the high slope one.

I've noticed this with some local links courses. Hard for the very good player, but a lower slope than other courses good players find easier (like courses with many trees)

However, I hasten to add (more relevant to comments that precede yours). The section of this thread I responded to was purely on the raw difficulty of a course compared to another. Forget golfers, forget handicaps. Simply, which one is harder (from a general perspective). Slope can't give you the answer

 

[MiurasFan]

Yet, if you were a very low handicapper, a high slope course could potentially be very easy for you, but difficult for a bogey golfer. You could then go to a low slope course, and find it a lot more difficult than the high slope one.

I've noticed this with some local links courses. Hard for the very good player, but a lower slope than other courses good players find easier (like courses with many trees)

However, I hasten to add (more relevant to comments that precede yours). The section of this thread I responded to was purely on the raw difficulty of a course compared to another. Forget golfers, forget handicaps. Simply, which one is harder (from a general perspective). Slope can't give you the answer

As I stated in my post above, it depends on the definition of 'hard'!

 

[clubchamp98]

Yet, if you were a very low handicapper, a high slope course could potentially be very easy for you, but difficult for a bogey golfer. You could then go to a low slope course, and find it a lot more difficult than the high slope one.

I've noticed this with some local links courses. Hard for the very good player, but a lower slope than other courses good players find easier (like courses with many trees)

However, I hasten to add (more relevant to comments that precede yours). The section of this thread I responded to was purely on the raw difficulty of a course compared to another. Forget golfers, forget handicaps. Simply, which one is harder (from a general perspective). Slope can't give you the answer

Yes agree.
I find this at my home course.
Off the whites I can’t reach the fairway bunkers On most holes.
but off the yellows I can reach them all .
so it’s allegedly easier off the yellows ,but for me actually plays more difficult.

 

[RichA]

Yes agree.
I find this at my home course.
Off the whites I can’t reach the fairway bunkers On most holes.
but off the yellows I can reach them all .
so it’s allegedly easier off the yellows ,but for me actually plays more difficult.

If it's genuinely easier when you don't reach the fairway bunkers, why aren't you laying up when playing off the yellow tees? Surely that would produce the same effect as playing off the white tees.

 

[sweaty sock]

If it's genuinely easier when you don't reach the fairway bunkers, why aren't you laying up when playing off the yellow tees? Surely that would produce the same effect as playing off the white tees.

Because the rating is so heavily influenced by length, the course rating will be lower, so you end up hitting the same shots, but needing to achieve a better score for the same differential.

There are tons of courses and many holes with only one realistic place to play your second from that suffer the same "harder from the yellows" condition....

 

[clubchamp98]

If it's genuinely easier when you don't reach the fairway bunkers, why aren't you laying up when playing off the yellow tees? Surely that would produce the same effect as playing off the white tees.

I don’t carry a 3 wood as my driver is the best club in my bag.
I very rarely play the yellows unless it’s a seniors comp But they are rare for me.
plus I get another shot off the whites.

 

[clubchamp98]

Because the rating is so heavily influenced by length, the course rating will be lower, so you end up hitting the same shots, but needing to achieve a better score for the same differential.

There are tons of courses and many holes with only one realistic place to play your second from that suffer the same "harder from the yellows" condition....

Exactly.

 

[rulefan]

Because the rating is so heavily influenced by length, the course rating will be lower, so you end up hitting the same shots, but needing to achieve a better score for the same differential.

Given that the Score Differential is modified by the slope wouldn't that make a difference? In addition 'forced lay up' or 'lay up by choice' are provided for in the rating calculation

 

[Deleted member 30522]

This, for me, is the biggest mistake. the reason for doing it was to encourage more people to play, I think, but there is no need for this. If they want to play they can they don't need a HC. If they want to play competitive golf, ie club comps, and have a chance to win, have lessons and damn well practice like the rest of us have had to do. Pampering to lazy People is not the way forward.

Exactly this. The current obsession from Scottish Golf (and I assume the other CONGU nations) to have everyone have a handicap via GP cards is ludicrous. Anyone could have a handicap before, but the majority just play recreationally, and will between friends if they play for something just have a "I'm giving you 4 shots today" style handicap system.

Allowing folks to hand in cards all the time does absolutely nothing to grow the game, it's just a target hitting / bonus achieving KPI for some blazer in Fife.

 

[Deleted member 30522]

Because the rating is so heavily influenced by length, the course rating will be lower, so you end up hitting the same shots, but needing to achieve a better score for the same differential.

There are tons of courses and many holes with only one realistic place to play your second from that suffer the same "harder from the yellows" condition....

Yup, my home course is the same, on 10 of the 14 par 4s, I'd be hitting less to be in the same position. Par is 70 v 72, but CR is 2.4 difference, the yellows v par is allegedly "easier"

 

[tobybarker]

I believe what was said was correct, in that they meant Slope doesn't tell you that one course is more difficult than the other.

Slope tells you the relative difficulty between higher and lower handicapped golfers. But, it doesn't tell you which course is more difficult. A course with a higher slope is not necessarily more difficult than one with a lower slope.

indeed

 

[tobybarker]

Sorry, that's codswallop! Slope is absolutely, and entirely, the attribute that indicates the relative difficulty of two courses! It's CR that says nothing about relative difficulty!

it really isnt

 

[Voyager EMH]

Yup, my home course is the same, on 10 of the 14 par 4s, I'd be hitting less to be in the same position. Par is 70 v 72, but CR is 2.4 difference, the yellows v par is allegedly "easier"

Same at mine. Off the yellows I need to be 2 shots better (1.9 to be exact) to achieve the same differential. Course does not play 2 shots "easier" in relation to par for me.
It might do so for other handicaps and styles of play, but not for me. I accept this though. We are not all golfing machines. We have idiosyncrasies and quirks to our games.

One of our par-4s is straight as a die off the whites, but a dogleg off the yellows. This is the biggest shortening of length of all our par-4s. I am able to get further down the fairway and nearer to the green with more consistency off the white tee. But higher handicaps won't be reaching the green in two shots from either tee. For them, the shorter length of the hole from the yellows has its full benefit.

 

[tobybarker]

It is not "true to say" this at all. It is a view that anyone can take if they are focussed on "how many over par" or how easy/difficult it is to achieve 36 points.
To play "to your handicap" or thereabouts, no course is easier/harder than any other. This is a view you can take if you embrace the new system (WHS).
But we are not all precise golfing machines. Personal quirks to our game might make us feel more suited or more comfortable on some courses than others.

try playing Augusta and then claim one course isn't harder than another. the don't hold the majors on the local muni.....

 

[doublebogey7]

Because the rating is so heavily influenced by length, the course rating will be lower, so you end up hitting the same shots, but needing to achieve a better score for the same differential.

If the course is shorter you can not be playing all "the same shots" you will be hitting a shorter club for your first shot and for the vast majority if us that means you are more likely to be in the desired position for your second shot.

 

[Voyager EMH]

try playing Augusta and then claim one course isn't harder than another. the don't hold the majors on the local muni.....

I don't know what the CR and SR of Augusta from the championship tees are.
Lets say that they are 75.5 and 145 to give an example.
My HI is currently 4.5.
With the above ratings I would need to shoot an 11 over par 83 to beat my 8th best score and reduce my HI by a touch.
6 over par off the yellows at my home course is a poorer score than the above and would not lower my handicap.
I would not say that either course is significantly easier or harder for me to achieve my goal.

 

[Swango1980]

I don't know what the CR and SR of Augusta from the championship tees are.
Lets say that they are 75.5 and 145 to give an example.
My HI is currently 4.5.
With the above ratings I would need to shoot an 11 over par 83 to beat my 8th best score and reduce my HI by a touch.
6 over par off the yellows at my home course is a poorer score than the above and would not lower my handicap.
I would not say that either course is significantly easier or harder for me to achieve my goal.

And, if you were to play off scratch (let us say in your club champs), would you have an opinion of one course being harder than the other?