WHS doesn't work

[JonnyGutteridge]

I wonder where you draw the line on someone not playing to the best of their ability in a handicap counting round…

My mate is absolutely terrible at course management. If I gave him a pitching wedge and a putter, he would shoot better scores than he does with 14 clubs. Yet I just read on here that if someone chose to just take a 7 iron for every shot, they’d not falling foul of the rules somehow?
Is he not falling foul by using driver on a narrow par 4, making a quadruple bogey when he has a shot and could hit wedge wedge wedge and make a 4 or a 5…

What about towards the end of some of my competition rounds this year? I could be +6 with 3 holes left, but I only get 4 shots… I’m not interested in shooting a +6.. so I’ve made double bogeys when trying to make birdies and end up with a +9 - meaning some of these rounds count towards my best 8 and I end up with a higher handicap.

 

[clubchamp98]

I wonder where you draw the line on someone not playing to the best of their ability in a handicap counting round…

My mate is absolutely terrible at course management. If I gave him a pitching wedge and a putter, he would shoot better scores than he does with 14 clubs. Yet I just read on here that if someone chose to just take a 7 iron for every shot, they’d not falling foul of the rules somehow?
Is he not falling foul by using driver on a narrow par 4, making a quadruple bogey when he has a shot and could hit wedge wedge wedge and make a 4 or a 5…

What about towards the end of some of my competition rounds this year? I could be +6 with 3 holes left, but I only get 4 shots… I’m not interested in shooting a +6.. so I’ve made double bogeys when trying to make birdies and end up with a +9 - meaning some of these rounds count towards my best 8 and I end up with a higher handicap.

It was the interpretation of the rule. 1.3.
It says “ up to 14 clubs.”
I asked if 1 is up to 14.
But apparently only having 1 and a putter is not trying to get your best score.
But my question “ what is an acceptable number of clubs” hasn’t been answered.!

 

[Swango1980]

I wonder where you draw the line on someone not playing to the best of their ability in a handicap counting round…

My mate is absolutely terrible at course management. If I gave him a pitching wedge and a putter, he would shoot better scores than he does with 14 clubs. Yet I just read on here that if someone chose to just take a 7 iron for every shot, they’d not falling foul of the rules somehow?
Is he not falling foul by using driver on a narrow par 4, making a quadruple bogey when he has a shot and could hit wedge wedge wedge and make a 4 or a 5…

What about towards the end of some of my competition rounds this year? I could be +6 with 3 holes left, but I only get 4 shots… I’m not interested in shooting a +6.. so I’ve made double bogeys when trying to make birdies and end up with a +9 - meaning some of these rounds count towards my best 8 and I end up with a higher handicap.

Nothing wrong with course management, or lack of it, when counting towards handicap. That is all part of golf.

The extreme example of simply bring a 7 iron and a putter around a course would be a very clear example of a golfer not trying to shoot their best score in virtually all cases. Even in the case of a player bad with other clubs, the fact they have not brought any more than 2 clubs means they don't even have the option to use another club if the situation required it. I suppose it would become apparent if the same player also played rounds, especially competitions, with 14 clubs and shot good / great scores in comparison to their handicap

 

[tobybarker]

There is a report available on the England Golf WHS platform, “Competition vs General Play scores“ which shows for each player the number of Competition and General Play scores together with the average stroke differential for both categories. Makes interesting reading in some cases.

most of our members who put in GP cards have lower SD on the GP rounds....including me. Less stress on a GP round leads to better scoring - who knew?!?

 

[upsidedown]

most of our members who put in GP cards have lower SD on the GP rounds....including me. Less stress on a GP round leads to better scoring - who knew?!?

How's it became to us in NZ ,the fear of having a "card" in a competition wasn't there anymore, just another round of golf ?

 

[wjemather]

most of our members who put in GP cards have lower SD on the GP rounds....including me. Less stress on a GP round leads to better scoring - who knew?!?

That's over simplifying things somewhat. There are many other contributing factors. For example, there remains an NR = "chuck it in the bin" mentality during comps that doesn't exist for GP and, as at least one person has alluded to, courses are often setup longer and harder for competitions.

 

[tobybarker]

You cannot abuse the system without breaking the rules.

Playing with an unreasonable selection of clubs does not constitute trying to make the best score possible at each hole, so is not acceptable for handicapping. This is obvious. How hard you try with your one club is irrelevant.

Is a half-set unreasonable? Lots of people can only afford a grotty old driver - are they getting the best score they could possibly get? Where does that argument end? Maybe we should all be forced to get lessons to get the best score we can?

 

[tobybarker]

If they could do it with ease, they wouldn't be mid-high handicappers. For them, they need to have a great day to score that.

So now we're complaining about not winning with over-handicap scores? This is ridiculous.

The solution is to educate these golfers to the fact that, in a field of 100, they have a 1 in 100 chance of winning - they seem to think being a better player entitles them to a much greater chance than that, even when scoring well below their best. It's also much healthier to approach opens (especially handicap ones) as a good value opportunity to play elsewhere and just enjoy the day rather than go pot-hunting.

I'm no statistician, but I'm not convinced that 1 in a 100 chance is right - of the 99 high index players (for example) the chances are high that one at least will have "one of those days" that high cappers are famous for.....the odds are stacked against the low capper, which is, I understand, what the 95% adjustment is supposed to be for (though I think that should be a smaller number personally)

 

[SteveJay]

I'm no statistician, but I'm not convinced that 1 in a 100 chance is right - of the 99 high index players (for example) the chances are high that one at least will have "one of those days" that high cappers are famous for.....the odds are stacked against the low capper, which is, I understand, what the 95% adjustment is supposed to be for (though I think that should be a smaller number personally)

Not sure I agree with that.

Yes, the number of high handicappers mean that the likelihood of one having a great round is increased, but based on my playing experience over the years, an awful lot of high handicap golfers have no chance of winning.

I won several seniors competitions over the last couple of years (since WHS) when I was scoring 35-40 points. I knew full well that if i scored around my handicap, then i would beat probably 75-80% of the field as the chances of them playing to their handicap, let alone below it, was minimal. I know it might be slightly different for all club comps, but I still think a lot of golfers never have a chance of winning.

WHS isn't a prefect leveller as we all know, so I would still think the odds are stacked in favour of mid handicappers and lower, as well as any high handicappers who are in the "improving" stage. Many high handicappers are unfortunately just going to remain that way and not improve for various reasons, including ability, physical limitations, mental attitude, lack of practice, lack of playing regularly etc. etc.

 

[tobybarker]

Not sure I agree with that.

Yes, the number of high handicappers mean that the likelihood of one having a great round is increased, but based on my playing experience over the years, an awful lot of high handicap golfers have no chance of winning.

I won several seniors competitions over the last couple of years (since WHS) when I was scoring 35-40 points. I knew full well that if i scored around my handicap, then i would beat probably 75-80% of the field as the chances of them playing to their handicap, let alone below it, was minimal. I know it might be slightly different for all club comps, but I still think a lot of golfers never have a chance of winning.

WHS isn't a prefect leveller as we all know, so I would still think the odds are stacked in favour of mid handicappers and lower, as well as any high handicappers who are in the "improving" stage. Many high handicappers are unfortunately just going to remain that way and not improve for various reasons, including ability, physical limitations, mental attitude, lack of practice, lack of playing regularly etc. etc.

I woul

Yes, the number of high handicappers mean that the likelihood of one having a great round is increased, but based on my playing experience over the years, an awful lot of high handicap golfers have no chance of winning.

It only needs one, that's the point - and in a big enough field there will probably be one (or more)

 

[OnTour]

I agree with you on the lat 3 holes, I'm after 3 or better gross after that the towel is thrown in or practice begins without putting my partners off

what is the maximum increase in handicap you can have in a year ? is there one. start say 3.3 can you be off 10 by next 20 cards.

I wonder where you draw the line on someone not playing to the best of their ability in a handicap counting round…

My mate is absolutely terrible at course management. If I gave him a pitching wedge and a putter, he would shoot better scores than he does with 14 clubs. Yet I just read on here that if someone chose to just take a 7 iron for every shot, they’d not falling foul of the rules somehow?
Is he not falling foul by using driver on a narrow par 4, making a quadruple bogey when he has a shot and could hit wedge wedge wedge and make a 4 or a 5…

What about towards the end of some of my competition rounds this year? I could be +6 with 3 holes left, but I only get 4 shots… I’m not interested in shooting a +6.. so I’ve made double bogeys when trying to make birdies and end up with a +9 - meaning some of these rounds count towards my best 8 and I end up with a higher handicap.

 

[Swango1980]

I agree with you on the lat 3 holes, I'm after 3 or better gross after that the towel is thrown in or practice begins without putting my partners off

what is the maximum increase in handicap you can have in a year ? is there one. start say 3.3 can you be off 10 by next 20 cards.

Your Index can only go up a maximum of 5.0 from its lowest value in the last year. Once it gets beyond 3.0 higher, any further increases are halved until it gets to 5.0 higher

 

[Backsticks]

Which seems unknown to the uninformed in wider golf than discussions here. I think some of the heresay chat and mistrust of whs comes from a misunderstanding that someone can put in 20 cards and jump 10 shots.

 

[Tashyboy]

Watching the lads have a rant on the WhatsApp group back end of last week made me chuckle. Suffice to say I don’t think they are lovers of WHS ?

 

[jim8flog]

Watching the lads have a rant on the WhatsApp group back end of last week made me chuckle. Suffice to say I don’t think they are lovers of WHS ?

I play with one guy who still moans about the changes the UHS introduced.

 

[Tashyboy]

I play with one guy who still moans about the changes the UHS introduced.

I am of the ilk it’s here to stay. So we have to get used to it.

 

[Captain_Black.]

Played the other day.
A guy in the other group who had insisted on putting in a GP card on the previous day in terrible conditions & was insisting on putting in another one on the day I played when the wind was gusting to 35mph & sporadic rain.

Turns out he shot 22 points & one of his group said ahh well he got his wish to bump up his H/C a bit.
I suspect quite a few will use the winter for this in an effort to gain a few shots prior to the new season kicking off in the Spring.

Nobody will convince me that WHS isn't easier to manipulate & those that of that inclination are taking full advantage.

 

[clubchamp98]

Played the other day.
A guy in the other group who had insisted on putting in a GP card on the previous day in terrible conditions & was insisting on putting in another one on the day I played when the wind was gusting to 35mph & sporadic rain.

Turns out he shot 22 points & one of his group said ahh well he got his wish to bump up his H/C a bit.
I suspect quite a few will use the winter for this in an effort to gain a few shots prior to the new season kicking off in the Spring.

Nobody will convince me that WHS isn't easier to manipulate & those that of that inclination are taking full advantage.

Yes he is .
But unfortunately he’s not breaking any rules.
The system is wide open if your that way inclined.

 

[Deleted member 30522]

Not much though. You could get a shot back before. Now you can get a couple, but its quite a few rounds to do that. And exceeding three takes a LOT of bad golf.
So gaining 1 or 2 shots more than before does NOT explain 50 points or Net 59s.

You got 0.1 before, and eventually a shot. Now you can go up rapidly. I started season at 5.6, quickly got to 7.8, then down to 4.0, last 4 rounds of season saw me get 1.9 the other way and will start 2023 on 5.9.

 

[JonnyGutteridge]

Played the other day.
A guy in the other group who had insisted on putting in a GP card on the previous day in terrible conditions & was insisting on putting in another one on the day I played when the wind was gusting to 35mph & sporadic rain.

Turns out he shot 22 points & one of his group said ahh well he got his wish to bump up his H/C a bit.
I suspect quite a few will use the winter for this in an effort to gain a few shots prior to the new season kicking off in the Spring.

Nobody will convince me that WHS isn't easier to manipulate & those that of that inclination are taking full advantage.

You mean to say that PCC didn’t kick in and help out with the score differential on the day with terrible conditions?

I am shocked! ? It probably didn’t even change!

Completely agree. General Play cards need a lot of consideration - in my opinion should be a limit on how many general play cards can contribute to your “best 8”. I’d suggest a maximum of 2. So your handicap would be your best 8 out of your last 20, but excluding all but your best 2 general play scores within those 20 rounds.