WHS doesn't work

[BiMGuy]

The generalisation that "scores are better in the summer" doesn't hold water, it is entirely dependent on the type of course, the area of the country, and the type of player. Some will be better with soft ground, some will be better with no wind. Personally, I hate hard fairways and I have a low ball flight so don't worry too much about the wind. I've looked at my scores from the last eight years and I score better in the winter.

Since 2014 my average score differential in the summer has been worse than the winter (22.9 v 23.7). If I exclude Winter 20/21 (as I hardly played, and it skews the numbers) then the winter average drops to 22.7, exactly one shot worse than my summer average. BTW, for the purpose of this exercise, "Summer" is Apr-Sep and "Winter" is Oct-Mar.

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At my old course I would score better in the winter. The course was much shorter off the winter tees. It was softer, and the greens were slower. We played off mats so had perfect lies. Even allowing for the cold and wind, scoring was much easier.

My current course is a different experience. There are no winter tees or greens so the course plays significantly longer in winter. The cold and wind makes a big difference due to the exposed nature of the course. Meaning it feels like it plays a few strokes harder. Although I don’t have enough data to back that up.

 

[IanM]

Summer v Winter golf is massively location and course dependent.

Go and play Celtic Manor today, you will lose balls on the fairway. Play Hankley Common, you probably won't need to clean your shoes afterwards!! (if you see what I mean) The latter is "proper golf, the former is not. So qualifiers in the winter at Celtic Manor are daft, are Hankley, it's "as you were!"

Most clubs (I am aware of) used to stop qualifiers over winter because of the vagaries of the playing conditions. Someone in Authority now thinks absolutely everything should be qualifying. Even bloomin' Matchplay.

OK The more cards you put in the more accurate your handicap. Logical and not untrue. But people who play golf will give you lots of occasions where other things are in force. Trouble is, I wonder if it whizzes over the heads of people who prefer looking at a wee book, to hitting a ball!

 

[Swango1980]

Summer v Winter golf is massively location and course dependent.

Go and play Celtic Manor today, you will lose balls on the fairway. Play Hankley Common, you probably won't need to clean your shoes afterwards!! (if you see what I mean) The latter is "proper golf, the former is not. So qualifiers in the winter at Celtic Manor are daft, are Hankley, it's "as you were!"

Most clubs (I am aware of) used to stop qualifiers over winter because of the vagaries of the playing conditions. Someone in Authority now thinks absolutely everything should be qualifying. Even bloomin' Matchplay.

OK The more cards you put in the more accurate your handicap. Logical and not untrue. But people who play golf will give you lots of occasions where other things are in force. Trouble is, I wonder if it whizzes over the heads of people who prefer looking at a wee book, to hitting a ball!

Was just looking to see if any of the well known courses are on howdidido. Couldn't find Celtic Manor

St Andrews is playing loads of qualifiers, at all its different courses. Comps on all courses this weekend, with winning scores 40 points (Old Course), 30 Points (New Course, only 3 players), 38 points (Jubilee Course), 39 points (Eden Course) and 38 points (Strathtyrum Course). Similar decent scores week before, even one score of 46 points on Old Course

Carnoustie had a competition qualifier yesterday. Winner had 43 points (7 with 38 points or more, which is CR, in a field of 29). Last Tuesday, the winner was 1 under gross for 44 points, with another chap getting 38 points (and top 6 out of 19 getting 36 points or more)

So, it seems like good scores are still possible at this time of year at St Andrews and Carnoustie. Although, I'm not sure those course fit your definition of "proper golf"?

 

[IanM]

How simple can it be?

St A and Carnoustie. Links. Dry. Proper golf. (My Hankley Common example)

Celtic Manor. Bog. Not Proper golf. Not fit to play a qualifier on in the winter.

Also. Reread my first sentence

 

[Swango1980]

How simple can it be?

St A and Carnoustie. Links. Dry. Proper golf. (My Hankley Common example)

Celtic Manor. Bog. Not Proper golf. Not fit to play a qualifier on in the winter.

Also. Reread my first sentence

My old course is a proper bog over the winter. I can't imagine worse, and the owner allows buggies (all about the money) which tear up the course even more. Players in competitions are still capable of excellent scoring over the winter, with scores often still in excess (and well in excess) of 40 points. There are pros and cons to playing in such conditions. It will also depend on the player playing, just like some players prefer a course that has more dog leg rights than lefts or vice versa (i.e. some course suit a drawer of the ball, others suit a fader).

Obviously, we are all discussing this from our own perceptions. There is no doubt that the ball goes significantly less distance in the winter, and so maybe this hurts shorter hitters more, whilst it saves longer hitters who are off line. The shorter rough in the winter might help golfers in winter (at my course, it is hard to tell where the fairway ends and rough begins in the winter, as grass is not growing), and some may like the preferred lies if they are able to tee it up a little on a tuft of higher grass. Whereas, it may hurt other golfers who hit the ball a little heavy, and get away with it in the fluffier summer grass.

It would be interesting to know what the handicap authorities have done in comparing summer and winter golf. Handicap rounds were encouraged over the winter long before WHS came about, so presumably they analysed many scores to show there is little difference, in general, between summer and winter scores? If there was a difference, then ideally the PCC would work well enough to effectively adjust the Course Rating upwards to account for the increase in the relative difficulty (although I still don't know if the authorities are even fully confident it does that, given the recent changes). Therefore, if there are courses like Celtic Manor that are truly more difficult over the winter, relative to the summer scores they get, then the PCC would increase to a value to account for the relatively worse scoring than would be expected in the summer. Whereas if there are courses that are actually easier, as they are in still pretty good condition, but with less rough, preferred lies, etc, then maybe PCC would even drop.

 

[jim8flog]

Depends entirely on the type of course you play & the area of the country to an extent.
We currently have placing on the fairways & dropping in the rough.
As for the rough being higher in the summer?
I don't find that is the case, as the rough & now the fairways are too wet to cut & the course too soft for the machinery.
To me, serious golf is played in the Spring / Summer & autumn.
Winter is just a quick knock to keep your eye in & not to be taken too seriously.
Really don't see what can be gained from playing qualifiers in the winter.

As per your first sentence

Where I play with have comps all year round, so if you can play in a comp for handicap purposes why not a GP round? In one of our weekly swindles virtually everybody puts in a card for GP purposes all year round.

On a personal note most of my handicap cuts used to come during the winter months because I could fire at the flags with virtual certainty the ball would stop within a yard of where it landed.

Our rough is certainly worse in summer because they struggle to keep on top of it. One cut a week or two is good enough in winter but twice a week is not enough in a lot of summers.

 

[jim8flog]

Most clubs (I am aware of) used to stop qualifiers over winter because of the vagaries of the playing conditions. Someone in Authority now thinks absolutely everything should be qualifying. Even bloomin' Matchplay.

This is what variable Standard Scratch and now PCC is all about, so clubs could play qualifiers all year round.

 

[IanM]

This is what variable Standard Scratch and now PCC is all about, so clubs could play qualifiers all year round.

Indeed...."Could" play... but in the case of muddy bogs, my point was "should they?"

 

[clubchamp98]

My old course is a proper bog over the winter. I can't imagine worse, and the owner allows buggies (all about the money) which tear up the course even more. Players in competitions are still capable of excellent scoring over the winter, with scores often still in excess (and well in excess) of 40 points. There are pros and cons to playing in such conditions. It will also depend on the player playing, just like some players prefer a course that has more dog leg rights than lefts or vice versa (i.e. some course suit a drawer of the ball, others suit a fader).

Obviously, we are all discussing this from our own perceptions. There is no doubt that the ball goes significantly less distance in the winter, and so maybe this hurts shorter hitters more, whilst it saves longer hitters who are off line. The shorter rough in the winter might help golfers in winter (at my course, it is hard to tell where the fairway ends and rough begins in the winter, as grass is not growing), and some may like the preferred lies if they are able to tee it up a little on a tuft of higher grass. Whereas, it may hurt other golfers who hit the ball a little heavy, and get away with it in the fluffier summer grass.

It would be interesting to know what the handicap authorities have done in comparing summer and winter golf. Handicap rounds were encouraged over the winter long before WHS came about, so presumably they analysed many scores to show there is little difference, in general, between summer and winter scores? If there was a difference, then ideally the PCC would work well enough to effectively adjust the Course Rating upwards to account for the increase in the relative difficulty (although I still don't know if the authorities are even fully confident it does that, given the recent changes). Therefore, if there are courses like Celtic Manor that are truly more difficult over the winter, relative to the summer scores they get, then the PCC would increase to a value to account for the relatively worse scoring than would be expected in the summer. Whereas if there are courses that are actually easier, as they are in still pretty good condition, but with less rough, preferred lies, etc, then maybe PCC would even drop.

It’s not just the course condition though.
Do you play better golf in a polo shirt and shorts or in 4 layers inc a waterproof suit at 1 or 2 degrees.
Some courses shut down for winter all over the world ,some stay open 365 as the weather is great all year.
The weather in the North West is very changeable ,
Our course is playing very long atm but in summer it’s more about controlling your ball on the slopes.
Totally different playing conditions from winter to summer.
But if golfers want to put cards in that is their right as long as the course is ok.
But imho once PL come into force that’s not proper golf.

 

[Swango1980]

It’s not just the course condition though.
Do you play better golf in a polo shirt and shorts or in 4 layers inc a waterproof suit at 1 or 2 degrees.
Some courses shut down for winter all over the world ,some stay open 365 as the weather is great all year.
The weather in the North West is very changeable ,
Our course is playing very long atm but in summer it’s more about controlling your ball on the slopes.
Totally different playing conditions from winter to summer.
But if golfers want to put cards in that is their right as long as the course is ok.
But imho once PL come into force that’s not proper golf.

I play golf better in short sleeves rather than long sleeves. I guess scores should be deemed unacceptable for handicap for anybody that wears a jumper. Or, if it ever rains, regardless of the time of year, not acceptable. Or, if it is unusually windy, unacceptable It would certainly help solve the winter problem some think exist. Only to some extend though, as I was in short sleeves last weekend I must admit, wasn't too windy and it only rained a little bit for a while, so my score would still probably count

What about scores in the middle of the summer, when it is 30+ degrees C and the fairways are very dry. Would these be OK for handicap? You could argue that these sort of extreme dry / hot conditions are much rarer than cold and wet conditions. So, maybe golf in hot and dry weather is not "proper golf", but golf in bad conditions is much more "normal"?

 

[clubchamp98]

I play golf better in short sleeves rather than long sleeves. I guess scores should be deemed unacceptable for handicap for anybody that wears a jumper. Or, if it ever rains, regardless of the time of year, not acceptable. Or, if it is unusually windy, unacceptable It would certainly help solve the winter problem some think exist. Only to some extend though, as I was in short sleeves last weekend I must admit, wasn't too windy and it only rained a little bit for a while, so my score would still probably count

What about scores in the middle of the summer, when it is 30+ degrees C and the fairways are very dry. Would these be OK for handicap? You could argue that these sort of extreme dry / hot conditions are much rarer than cold and wet conditions. So, maybe golf in hot and dry weather is not "proper golf", but golf in bad conditions is much more "normal"?

I would say weather conditions don’t really make any difference to most players.
But would prefer t shirt and shorts.
But if you are allowed to pick your ball up clean it and preffer your lie that’s not proper golf.
This normally happens in winter.

 

[Golfnut1957]

This one!

Some folk pointing out some negative implications of the WHS process in respect of general play cards, while others refuse to accept the notion.

Yes, sorry mine was a (too) subtle comment that it could have been referring to a number of threads. Did anyone mention LIV?

 

[IanM]

Yes, sorry mine was a (too) subtle comment that it could have been referring to a number of threads. Did anyone mention LIV?

 

[clubchamp98]

Lads were talking today.
There is a change coming that lets a player put a card in with no markers signature.
But it will incur a two shot penalty.

If that’s true it’s getting worse.
Player puts a dodgy card in and they make it worse by two shots.

MLR L-1 comittiee can stop DQ and give a two shot penalty, if no marker or player signiture.

 

[Wabinez]

Lads were talking today.
There is a change coming that lets a player put a card in with no markers signature.
But it will incur a two shot penalty.

If that’s true it’s getting worse.
Player puts a dodgy card in and they make it worse by two shots.

MLR L-1 comittiee can stop DQ and give a two shot penalty, if no marker or player signiture.

So it’s a model local rule - which means clubs can choose not to implement it if they see fit….and will apply to competitions, not general play cards from the wording of the ’press release’ which says the rule will be available to tournament committees to put in play for their events.

 

[clubchamp98]

So it’s a model local rule - which means clubs can choose not to implement it if they see fit….and will apply to competitions, not general play cards from the wording of the ’press release’ which says the rule will be available to tournament committees to put in play for their events.

Why would they need that option.?
It’s a fundamental of golf that you and your marker sign the card.
The digital age is changing the game ,not always for the good imo.

 

[Wabinez]

Why would they need that option.?
It’s a fundamental of golf that you and your marker sign the card.
The digital age is changing the game ,not always for the good imo.

because people can…forget?

its obviously been brought up with the R&A and USGA for them to make it a local rule, and test it for 4 years before seeing if they just include it in the rules.

clubs and tournaments might not implement the rule, and if you sign your cards there is nothing to worry about.

dont see any issues with the experiment myself

 

[jim8flog]

Lads were talking today.
There is a change coming that lets a player put a card in with no markers signature.
But it will incur a two shot penalty.

If that’s true it’s getting worse.
Player puts a dodgy card in and they make it worse by two shots.

MLR L-1 comittiee can stop DQ and give a two shot penalty, if no marker or player signiture.

It is normally possible to verify a players score by cross checking with the markers card. Who the marker was can be verified by tee times.

The committee can now make a decision on the circumstances as to lack signature as to what penalty to apply. The committee have always been able to overturn a DQ penalty if they feel it is too severe a penalty no time at the moment to look at where to find it in the current rules.

 

[Crazyface]

WHS is now bonkers complicated, too complicated. The previous system and WHS are easy to manipulate. So there's the problem. I think the old system was better, but take out the buffer zone rubbish, why complicate? How to stop the fiddlers? I've said it before, but I'll say it again. If anyone puts a net score in that's below par, then their H/C should be reduced down to what they have just scored, assuming it is lower than their current H/C. Any increase in handicap is only point one per game played that does not have a net score lower than par for the course played.

 

[clubchamp98]

It is normally possible to verify a players score by cross checking with the markers card. Who the marker was can be verified by tee times.

The committee can now make a decision on the circumstances as to lack signature as to what penalty to apply. The committee have always been able to overturn a DQ penalty if they feel it is too severe a penalty no time at the moment to look at where to find it in the current rules.

Yes it is possible.
But it’s the first thing your taught as a golfer.
You don’t really have a lot to do to sign your card.

But creating more work for Handicap sec.