WHS doesn't work

[wjemather]

Yes there’s been a lot of complaints
Simple answer is they are not breaking any rules.
It’s wide open to abuse ,and some are taking advantage.

These statements are somewhat contradictory.

 

[rulefan]

I see a problem with this response ?

Who will have the problem, the committee or the player?

 

[IanM]

Who will have the problem, the committee or the player?

97% of the readers of this forum!?

They won't know what clause thingermebob is

 

[clubchamp98]

These statements are somewhat contradictory.

Are they ?
Player A can shoot 50 pts ,
Then over three weeks put 20 GP cards in and he’s back where he started, that score is gone from his record.
So he shoots 50 pts again what rules has he broken ?


We are going around in circles.
A lot of golfers on here have high lighted a problem.
But we’re being told we’re wrong, it’s the comittiees fault, the course SR is wrong ,everything but WHS at fault.

It’s wide open to abuse from players. Without breaking any rules.!!

 

[Backsticks]

Are they ?
Player A can shoot 50 pts ,
Then over three weeks put 20 GP cards in and he’s back where he started, that score is gone from his record.
So he shoots 50 pts again what rules has he broken ?


We are going around in circles.
A lot of golfers on here have high lighted a problem.
But we’re being told we’re wrong, it’s the comittiees fault, the course SR is wrong ,everything but WHS at fault.

It’s wide open to abuse from players. Without breaking any rules.!!

This is contradictory.

If players abuse the system, then they have broken the rules. They cannot both abuse the system, and not break the rules.
If someone submits 20 cards in 3 weeks without breaking the rules, and then shoots a great score, the score it perfectly legitimate. There is nothing wrong with it. It isnt a problem.

 

[clubchamp98]

This is contradictory.

If players abuse the system, then they have broken the rules. They cannot both abuse the system, and not break the rules.
If someone submits 20 cards in 3 weeks without breaking the rules, and then shoots a great score, the score it perfectly legitimate. There is nothing wrong with it. It isnt a problem.

So player A goes out to play a GP card but only takes a 7 iron and a putter.
Shoots 100 gross.
He does this 20 times ,tries his best on every shot.
First comp he shoots 75 gross because he has 14 clubs!
What rule has he broken.

 

[Backsticks]

So player A goes out to play a GP card but only takes a 7 iron and a putter.
Shoots 100 gross.
He does this 20 times ,tries his best on every shot.
First comp he shoots 75 gross because he has 14 clubs!
What rule has he broken.

Rule 1.3

Taking only a 7 iron and putter is not an effort to make his best score possible on each hole. It is a deliberate action that is not acting with integrity, with the aim of or circumventing the Rules of Handicapping for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage in the 21st round.

He has broken the rule.

 

[Imurg]

Rule 1.3

Taking only a 7 iron and putter is not an effort to make his best score possible on each hole. It is a deliberate action that is not acting with integrity, with the aim of or circumventing the Rules of Handicapping for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage in the 21st round.

He has broken the rule.

Unless this player admits to the reduced number of clubs or youre out there with him....how do you, as a Committee member, know that this has happened?
How do you know that someone has or hasn't tried their best on every shot?
Yes, they're supposed to but you can be pretty sure that not everyone does every time.
The fact that you are able to sign in for a card, sit in the car park for a couple of hours, inventing your score, then punch it into the system without taking your clubs out of the boot shows how easy it is.
Obviously the vast majority don't do that but its also just as easy to deliberately miss a few putts to bump the numbers up.
Yes, again, you're not supposed to do it....but how do you know ?
You can't....simples.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Unless this player admits to the reduced number of clubs or youre out there with him....how do you, as a Committee member, know that this has happened?
How do you know that someone has or hasn't tried their best on every shot?
Yes, they're supposed to but you can be pretty sure that not everyone does every time.
The fact that you are able to sign in for a card, sit in the car park for a couple of hours, inventing your score, then punch it into the system without taking your clubs out of the boot shows how easy it is.
Obviously the vast majority don't do that but its also just as easy to deliberately miss a few putts to bump the numbers up.
Yes, again, you're not supposed to do it....but how do you know ?
You can't....simples.

Indeed…I can try very hard every shot but that might end up with a terrible score if I don’t play sensibly; try shots and take risks I might not normally take. Most of us actually do this regularly, but we call it ‘poor course management’ rather than ‘not trying our best’. Did it yesterday myself. Should have taken my medicine on a par 5 and chances I’d have got a 6 (5 would still have been on). Instead I didn‘t think hard enough and walked off with an 8.

Thing is…situation is just as before when players will play their ‘stretch’ ability in a non-qualiying comps. Recently had experience of a low 20s h/c fella playing 9 under his PH in a team comp, but as it wasnt a qualifier he didn’t get cut. Truth is though, he was as much astonished as the rest of us at what he‘d done and we were v pleased for him and so I don’t think many felt ‘cheated’ or that his play really merited a cut.

 

[upsidedown]

So player A goes out to play a GP card but only takes a 7 iron and a putter.
Shoots 100 gross.
He does this 20 times ,tries his best on every shot.
First comp he shoots 75 gross because he has 14 clubs!
What rule has he broken.

Are any of the guys who've had high scores at your place doing this ? Not the 2 clubs but loads of GP scores

 

[Crazyface]

There's a lot to take in here. I don't profess to understand it all BUT ... at my place last year I put loads of "cards" in off yellows and came down to 12.5. Yellows are an easy knock round. This made me uncompetitive in the seniors to extent I stopped bothering with comps during the summer where 42points were needed to Finnish top 10. This year, I've put cards in only off whites, much harder, and am now off 15. Still not competetive with the seniors due to baked ground conditions but better. My problem with understanding all this is that surely yellows or whites should make no difference. They have been rated differently so my h/c should be the same off either tees. This is obviously not the case, so the system is flawed and needs much more work.

 

[Backsticks]

There's a lot to take in here. I don't profess to understand it all BUT ... at my place last year I put loads of "cards" in off yellows and came down to 12.5. Yellows are an easy knock round. This made me uncompetitive in the seniors to extent I stopped bothering with comps during the summer where 42points were needed to Finnish top 10. This year, I've put cards in only off whites, much harder, and am now off 15. Still not competetive with the seniors due to baked ground conditions but better. My problem with understanding all this is that surely yellows or whites should make no difference. They have been rated differently so my h/c should be the same off either tees. This is obviously not the case, so the system is flawed and needs much more work.

Or your form has deteriorated...

 

[Backsticks]

Unless this player admits to the reduced number of clubs or youre out there with him....how do you, as a Committee member, know that this has happened?
How do you know that someone has or hasn't tried their best on every shot?
Yes, they're supposed to but you can be pretty sure that not everyone does every time.
The fact that you are able to sign in for a card, sit in the car park for a couple of hours, inventing your score, then punch it into the system without taking your clubs out of the boot shows how easy it is.
Obviously the vast majority don't do that but its also just as easy to deliberately miss a few putts to bump the numbers up.
Yes, again, you're not supposed to do it....but how do you know ?
You can't....simples.

Rinse and repeat still cant be done in practice despite the paranoia hypotheticals, and urban legends.
Scoring 50 pts will cut at least 4 shots. Soft cap will apply, so the amount of golf to get those back is huge. Doing it a second time, impossible. Or would require submitting a score 7 days a weeke evey week AND a hc secretary asleep at the wheel.
50 point is indeed wrong. But it is wrong by 7 or 8 shots! Not the 3 shots that someone, in theory, could engineer into their hc.

BTW, Carly Frost nails all the same cliches in her article.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Or your form has deteriorated...

I think there is 1 shot difference between yellow and white tees at my club but I reckon yellows are 3-5 shots easier. The scores that have brought me down this year are the GP cards off yellows ??‍

 

[Backsticks]

I think there is 1 shot difference between yellow and white tees at my club but I reckon yellows are 3-5 shots easier. The scores that have brought me down this year are the GP cards off yellows ??‍

Its possible. If so, it will show up in the differential analysis for both courses. Hc committee should see this and have the courses rerated.
Would be interesting to ask them - if they havent checked, then they arent doing their job. Or they may be able to show that globally either you are an outlier and mistaken, and it is within the expected scores when they look at them all. Or they may already know and agree with you - and just waiting for an assessor to come.

 

[clubchamp98]

Are any of the guys who've had high scores at your place doing this ? Not the 2 clubs but loads of GP scores

Some are .
Some have never put a GP score in.
We have four comps a week so no need for most

 

[clubchamp98]

Rule 1.3

Taking only a 7 iron and putter is not an effort to make his best score possible on each hole. It is a deliberate action that is not acting with integrity, with the aim of or circumventing the Rules of Handicapping for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage in the 21st round.

He has broken the rule.

I wasn’t aware there is a minimum amount of clubs you must carry.
I did say he tried his best with every shot.

 

[clubchamp98]

There's a lot to take in here. I don't profess to understand it all BUT ... at my place last year I put loads of "cards" in off yellows and came down to 12.5. Yellows are an easy knock round. This made me uncompetitive in the seniors to extent I stopped bothering with comps during the summer where 42points were needed to Finnish top 10. This year, I've put cards in only off whites, much harder, and am now off 15. Still not competetive with the seniors due to baked ground conditions but better. My problem with understanding all this is that surely yellows or whites should make no difference. They have been rated differently so my h/c should be the same off either tees. This is obviously not the case, so the system is flawed and needs much more work.

My experience of white vs yellow is that off most tees I can’t reach the vast majority of bunkers.
Off the yellows I can reach them all.
So although it’s supposed to be easier,it actually plays harder for me.

 

[AussieKB]

We have been using WHS for many years here in OZ and the mid to high handicappers win all the Opens, very easily, with 44 to plus 50 points, then they flush cards through to regain there handicap, everyone out here sees it and its a joke.

Now a lot of the Open fields are down, missing single figure players.....does not take rocket science to figure out why.

 

[rulefan]

.
I did say he tried his best with every shot.

But not his best score possible on each hole.