WHS doesn't work

[woofers]

The part of WHS that doesn't work is General Play cards.
I would love to see the data, I imagine it is overwhelming obvious that General Play scoring is significantly better than competition scoring,…

There is a report available on the England Golf WHS platform, “Competition vs General Play scores“ which shows for each player the number of Competition and General Play scores together with the average stroke differential for both categories. Makes interesting reading in some cases.

 

[rulefan]

There is a report available on the England Golf WHS platform, “Competition vs General Play scores“ which shows for each player the number of Competition and General Play scores together with the average stroke differential for both categories. Makes interesting reading in some cases.

Have you got a link. I can't find it on
https://members.whsplatform.englandgolf.org/
or
https://www.englandgolf.org/news/

 

[rosecott]

Have you got a link. I can't find it on
https://members.whsplatform.englandgolf.org/
or
https://www.englandgolf.org/news/

Will only be available to those with administrative rights on the WHS dashboard.

 

[rulefan]

Unsure about posting a link but does this screenshot help?

Will only be available to those with administrative rights on the WHS dashboard.

Got it, thanks.

 

[Junior]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1583480834853462016

I was going to post this. An excellent piece on the subject and sums up all these pages well.

1. The system came in and some handicaps jumped up significantly.
2. The system is good and works if everyone submits cards on a regular basis.
3. However, as many don't, there will always be flaws.
4. Handicaps reflect form and not ability and this is contentious.

 

[Deleted member 30522]

I was going to post this. An excellent piece on the subject and sums up all these pages well.

1. The system came in and some handicaps jumped up significantly.
2. The system is good and works if everyone submits cards on a regular basis.
3. However, as many don't, there will always be flaws.
4. Handicaps reflect form and not ability and this is contentious.

This is never going to happen, it would need a complete change of mindset from how golf has been played in these countries since forever.

 

[Junior]

This is never going to happen, it would need a complete change of mindset from how golf has been played in these countries since forever.

I agree.

I'm a golf badger. Mildly obsessed with the game. It occupies my mind on various levels most days.

That said, I've only played 27 qualifying rounds this Summer (most Saturdays and the odd open). My qualifying rounds have all been competitions. I just haven't got in the mindset of submitting a card each time I play. I dont think i will ever embrace this change. I love evening bounce games over 12 holes (various formats depending on number of players) and can't see me registering these scores for handicap.

 

[clubchamp98]

No I don’t…Carly says

I think Carly has it just about right.
The fact there’s 33 pages on the subject shows something is wrong imo.
The only thing I disagree with is a card every time you play.
Sometimes I just want to experiment with shots on the course ,can’t do that if putting a card in.

 

[Swango1980]

I suspect the mind change will generally happen with new golfers coming through the system, who are not wedded to the "old way".

Plenty of long time golfers at my place submit all their social scores, but of course there will also be many who can't be bothered, or feel it is too much effort.

For me, using MyEG, it makes social golf much more worthwhile and interesting. I can also enter all scores on App as I go, which is actually so much easier than writing everything out on a card

 

[nickjdavis]

There is a report available on the England Golf WHS platform, “Competition vs General Play scores“ which shows for each player the number of Competition and General Play scores together with the average stroke differential for both categories. Makes interesting reading in some cases.

There's many people whereby their ALL their general play cards result in a cut. No sign of any bad scores at all. I would love to see the data, I imagine it is overwhelming obvious that General Play scoring is significantly better than competition scoring, and that is due to the 2 reasons above.

When I looked at the report the differentials of General Play rounds compared to Competition rounds, GP rounds are on average, 1.5 strokes better (this is for golfers who have played at least 9 competition rounds and over 20 GP rounds so far this year). 1.5 strokes is hardly an indication of managing vanity handicaps or supportive of any claim that GP scoring is significantly better than comp scoring...mind you we dont have a load of low handicappers who are trying to get in to ballotted opens so perhaps that motivation isnt there.

However, there is no data whatsoever that supports any claim that players are only putting in their good scores from General Play rounds on a wholesale basis. I picked eight players at random from mid single digit players to mid 20 handicappers and 7 of them displayed General Play scoring patterns that showed their GP scores were biased so that 54% of their scores were worse than their mean score (the exception was a high handicapper who's pattern was the opposite)

So... overwhelmingly obvious that GP scores are significantly better than comp scoring?.....no, I think not.

 

[woofers]

I think Carly has it just about right.
The fact there’s 33 pages on the subject shows something is wrong imo.
The only thing I disagree with is a card every time you play.
Sometimes I just want to experiment with shots on the course ,can’t do that if putting a card in.

Same here.
I have over 50 qualifying scores in the last 12 months, mainly from club competitions & Opens and the others classified as General Play from society and tours where we play competitive golf.
I don’t put in cards when I’m playing socially as we either make up a 4BBB or I want to experiment with different shots, clubs etc.
I think a major fault with WHS is not having to submit a certain number of scores each year / rolling 12 months in order to keep an “active” or “competition“ handicap as in the UHS.

 

[patricks148]

I've not put in any GP scores yet, but I would be in favour of a min number of cards per year, no idea how many that would be though. We have a couple of example of guys putting no scores in since WHS and have significantly improved, romped a couple of the knock outs as they appear to be able to play well under their current handicap, but also have another few who put in dozens of cards and are much much lower than they ever were under the old system, one is at least 5 shots. Had a conversation with one of the selectors of one of the teams and he said he's hard not to pick as he's prob the lowest in that category, but in comps hasn't broken 80 gross in any comp.

Obviously this was also a problem under the old system as well. Wish there was some sort of answer

 

[clubchamp98]

Same here.
I have over 50 qualifying scores in the last 12 months, mainly from club competitions & Opens and the others classified as General Play from society and tours where we play competitive golf.
I don’t put in cards when I’m playing socially as we either make up a 4BBB or I want to experiment with different shots, clubs etc.
I think a major fault with WHS is not having to submit a certain number of scores each year / rolling 12 months in order to keep an “active” or “competition“ handicap as in the UHS.

Yes we play a regular fourball midweek.
One lad is left handed so on our short par three we play left handed with his club.
He plays right handed with our clubs.
It’s just for fun, but if you have a bit of a lead it can disappear on this hole.
Social golf is the bedrock of golf imo.
If I had to put a card in every time I play I just would not enjoy it as much.

On your last statement I think if you can’t put 20 cards a year in your wasting your time being a member of a club.
A minimum of three is just a joke imo.

 

[clubchamp98]

I've not put in any GP scores yet, but I would be in favour of a min number of cards per year, no idea how many that would be though. We have a couple of example of guys putting no scores in since WHS and have significantly improved, romped a couple of the knock outs as they appear to be able to play well under their current handicap, but also have another few who put in dozens of cards and are much much lower than they ever were under the old system, one is at least 5 shots. Had a conversation with one of the selectors of one of the teams and he said he's hard not to pick as he's prob the lowest in that category, but in comps hasn't broken 80 gross in any comp.

Obviously this was also a problem under the old system as well. Wish there was some sort of answer

Golf is supposedly played by honest ,rule abiding gentlemen and ladies.
I think WHS is showing us how many players don’t subscribe to that .
We are fast losing our image as self regulating players imo.
The system is easy to abuse without actually breaking any rules.

 

[nickjdavis]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1583480834853462016

There is some right nonsense in there. A lot of anecdotal or isolated incidents that are presented as sweeping generalisations that hold true for the entire WHS.

"Players with handicaps of 10 shots or more"....yes there may be some around but that is not to say that the WHS itself is solely responsible for that or that the vast majority of players have inflated handicaps.

"Players who played off a handicap of 20 or below but are now have handicaps as high as 30 and cant get themselves down".....maybe their old handicaps were wrong....maybe they cant get themselves down because they are not good enough.

"Clubs start with a scratch team and then lose players as their handicap rises" - maybe the players should practise more to get their handicaps back down....again that is not caused by the WHS....the same issue would have occurred under the UHS

"A lot of confusion over what scores should be submitted" - no there isn't, it is quite clear and is simply the responsibility of handicap committees to make clear to their members - again not a fault of the WHS

"...playing away in Scotland and card not submitted" - the club was wrong to say it would be submitted as there was no link between the Scottish and English systems to allow this to happen - but that's not a fault of the WHS itself, just the lack of integration between different systems

"We've all witnesses "that" golfer who four putts the last green to prevent their score from being too low..." ....er....actually no...I've never witnessed anything of the kind

"The WHS is clearly open to interpretation" - er...no it isnt. "Abuse?" - yes...but so was the old UHS.

"the new WHS seems to have shaken up the handicap system so that it is no longer equal or fair" - I'd say that it has balanced things out a bit and possibly evened out a prior bias towards low handicappers...maybe it has swung just slightly too much in the higher handicappers favour...but not awfully.

"we now have a maximum allowable handicap of 54" - hello....we had 54 handicaps before WHS

"Lets bring back 28 and 36 handicap limits....if you cant break 100 why should you be allowed to compete and win" - Basically....low handicapper elitist nonsense.

I don't mind people knocking any system, be it the WHS, the method of electing governments, how the pop charts are compiled etc.....but what I do object to are generalisations and anecdotes being used to criticise, which are not backed up by a shred of mathematical evidence....and golf is a numbers game, so the data is there to prove/disprove pretty much any claim about handicaps, scoring patterns etc.

 

[rulefan]

Same here.
I think a major fault with WHS is not having to submit a certain number of scores each year / rolling 12 months in order to keep an “active” or “competition“ handicap as in the UHS.

Wasn't that abandoned before WHS? But the committee can specify such conditions as a requirement for entry into competitions and/or to win prizes.

 

[woofers]

On your last statement I think if you can’t put 20 cards a year in your wasting your time being a member of a club.
A minimum of three is just a joke imo.

There needs to be a minimum, currently you potentially have players with handicaps awarded from UHS conversion able to enter competitions and win prizes. Obviously if it’s an individual competition then it will be a qualifying score, but if it’s matchplay then there is no direct impact on their handicap record. It just makes more work for handicap secretaries or committees.
The answer is to have a minimum number of qualifiers in order to win (or enter?) competition, (you could enter but not win individual comps, but not enter matchplay knockouts?)
Question is how many would be the minimum, I agree that 3 is a joke, I believe I have seen that SILH at Farnham has quoted 6 for their comps. There are factors such as course playability year round, somewhere free draining could ask for more than those prone to winter closures due to wet condition.

 

[rulefan]

"Lets bring back 28 and 36 handicap limits....if you cant break 100 why should you be allowed to compete and win" - Basically....low handicapper elitist nonsense.

And of course it defeats the whole purpose of handicaps.

If a 40 capper has no chance of winning, why enter. If he doesn't enter comps why bother joining a club? How does the club make up the lost subs?

 

[woofers]

The committee can specify such conditions as a requirement for entry into competitions.

Yes, on that there is always a discussion regarding “how many” is the right number, but also “can they enter and play, but not win” if they don’t meet the requirement? Down to individual clubs to decide I guess, but it would be interesting to get views or actual experiences of this.

 

[rulefan]

Yes, on that there is always a discussion regarding “how many” is the right number, but also “can they enter and play, but not win” if they don’t meet the requirement? Down to individual clubs to decide I guess, but it would be interesting to get views or actual experiences of this.

See my edit

Our conditions from 2023 will be:
Requiring 12 qualifying cards (9 or 18) on their record to be able to win a major/board competition, including 6 in the previous calendar year inclusive of general play rounds. Members without this can still play on the competition day to win divisional sweep monies and get qualifying cards onto their record.
But will be reconsidered at end of this year. Proportion of and actual GP vs Comp scores will be a key study.