WHS doesn't work

[NearHull]

Supernova wrote
When we do play these we have no mulligans of course but we do normally have like a 2v2 match going on and we do gimmes but they are not generous at all. If people want to cheat to get their handicap down then that's on them its only really going to bite them in the bum. Its obviously the other way where I see a problem.


For a first post, you appear to have grasped the concept of lighting the touch paper - if you are submitting cards.

 

[abjectplop]

It does seem a bit alien that they (general comment for US golfers) seem to accept solo rounds as being eligible for handicap.

Do they still do this in the US?! Used to be permitted under their own system, but I thought it stopped when WHS came in?

 

[Backsticks]

Jeremy Tomlinson, Chief Executive of England Golf, yesterday on National Club Golfer 'I do have sympathies for people who liked the old system, because it was a simple system, you could understand it, you could understand where your handicap was going, whether it was by design or not I dont know. WHS, you cant calculate it that way'.

He doesnt make a great case for WHS :
Again, the fact that its a world system, but then is it really.
That it tidied up anomalies (people with multiple Hcs) in the transition - that sounds more like housekeeping, or something that they should have done anyway.
And that different clubs were administering UHS in different ways. He doesnt expand on what this is, but I would guess there are more differences between what clubs are doing now, than there were.

 

[D-S]

Yours must be one of the courses that has kept pace with yardage gains or has already changed one or two holes that were par fives into par fours. I was thinking more of courses that have a CR lower than par, which are many.

My proposal was just to bring par back into line with where it was before everyone started hitting the ball further.

Which course is it out of interest?

Bristol and Clifton, with your system we would have to change two par 5s into fours, they are less than 550. So par would be 68 CR 71.6.

 

[rulefan]

Bristol and Clifton, with your system we would have to change two par 5s into fours, they are less than 550. So par would be 68 CR 71.6.

The recommended lower limit for a par 5 is 450 yards (370 for women).

 

[D-S]

The recommended lower limit for a par 5 is 450 yards (370 for women).

I know, I was referring to Crow’s proposal from earlier in this thread,

 

[Crow]

Bristol and Clifton, with your system we would have to change two par 5s into fours, they are less than 550. So par would be 68 CR 71.6.

I'd say your course is a bit of an exception because it already has a higher than usual percentage of "long" holes with 6 par fours over 400 yards long.

 

[Voyager EMH]

The recommended lower limit for a par 5 is 450 yards (370 for women).

Our ladies have a 413 yard par 4 where the tee shot is flat and the second shot is uphill. Dogleg to the right. There are 3 bunkers left of fairway and two more near the green.
There is a 417 yard par 5 that is all flat with no bunkers at all.

Par 71 and Course Rating 72.1

Methinks par 5 would be more appropriate for that hole.

 

[Deleted member 30522]

New here but I'd thought I'd chime in. I've only scan read the conversation of late in this thread so forgive me if I have taken it the wrong way.

I personally submit GP cards anytime I play away from my home course. My goal is to get my handicap down as low as possible. Doing it at my local is pretty tough. It's a super easy track but with the rating being 63/97 with a par of 69 it's pretty tough to get your handicap down. I've spoken to numerous people from all types of handicaps from Scratch to +20's and even the pro and we all agree that it should be like a 65 course rating (We've been saying it needs to be rerated). I was playing off like 8 as a index and under the new system I think I got 1 shot so for me to get my handicap down I'm going to have to shoot +2 or better which I find really tough.

Now I'm playing away at one of my other local courses near me. Much tougher test with a rating of 69/123 Par 70 I feel I have a way better chance around this golf course,

When we do play these we have no mulligans of course but we do normally have like a 2v2 match going on and we do gimmes but they are not generous at all. If people want to cheat to get their handicap down then that's on them its only really going to bite them in the bum. Its obviously the other way where I see a problem.

These two things are not compatible. You need to be holing out

 

[Orikoru]

Of course, the idea of Americans submitting cards when they haven't holed out putts is inconceivable to us, but why should we care really? If they end up with artificially low handicaps that they can't play to when they actually do have to hole putts, they've only harmed themselves haven't they? Nobody loses but them.

 

[Backache]

Of course, the idea of Americans submitting cards when they haven't holed out putts is inconceivable to us, but why should we care really? If they end up with artificially low handicaps that they can't play to when they actually do have to hole putts, they've only harmed themselves haven't they? Nobody loses but them.

Personally what they do doesn't bother me in the slightest.
They do not appear to have much formal competitive golf for mid-higher handicappers, based around handicap.

What concerns me is that we appear to have imported a system for handicaps that is intrinsically more volatile at the mid-higher level and is more open to manipulation which is not a good thing for our culture of organised competitive handicap golf.

 

[jim8flog]

Keeping pars and course ratings fundamentally based upon current guides for distance makes absolute sense to me as it caters in general for all abilities.

If you are a long hitter and are getting on par 5 is 2 it will be reflected in your handicap.

From GM Average male driving distances

• 2022: 225.9 yards
• 2021: 224.3 yards
• 2020: 225.3 yards
• 2019: 224.4 yards
• 2018: 226.4 yards

How Far Do Male Golfers Hit Their Drives?

Data from Arccos Golf shows some fascinating insight into how far different handicaps and ages hit their drives...

www.golfmonthly.com

Average Driving Distances in Golf | By Age & Handicap​

Shot Scope
https://shotscope.com › blog › stats › distribution-of-driv...



19 Oct 2022 — Nearly 70% of amateur golfers, have an average driving distance of less than 250 yards. This may come as a surprise.

 

[Whereditgo]

Do they still do this in the US?! Used to be permitted under their own system, but I thought it stopped when WHS came in?

Only going on the podcast that we were referring to, so I really don't know. But I can remember a couple of times at least that one of the contributors entered his score from earlier, it may or may not have even been the same day, into the GHIN app during the recording of the broadcast. I'm pretty sure it had been a solo round.

 

[Backsticks]

Of course, the idea of Americans submitting cards when they haven't holed out putts is inconceivable to us, but why should we care really? If they end up with artificially low handicaps that they can't play to when they actually do have to hole putts, they've only harmed themselves haven't they? Nobody loses but them.

Its inconceivable to us, because only competition rounds counted for handicap for us, so we didnt do it.

But we did it plenty when playing casual games. Now with casual games also being counting cards, we have the problem : gimmes, playing a second ball without penalty, etc and still submit the card - thus contaminating the honesty of your handicap, or, dont submit the card, thus contaminating a core element of the WhS philosophy.

Playing to the rules, competition scores determining your handicap for use in competition worked.
Now we are trying to put a square WHS peg in a round British golf hole in the name (only) of having the facade of a world handicap system.

While totally rolling back something is never palatable, and the fundamental 8 from 20 appeals to me, there is a lot to commend a return to UHS here. Would a conversion table be so difficult ? Or a tweak to UHS that would have indexes align with WHS ones anyway, while restoring the lost good that worked for us in UHS ?

 

[Alan Clifford]

New here but I'd thought I'd chime in. I've only scan read the conversation of late in this thread so forgive me if I have taken it the wrong way.

I personally submit GP cards anytime I play away from my home course. My goal is to get my handicap down as low as possible. Doing it at my local is pretty tough. It's a super easy track but with the rating being 63/97 with a par of 69 it's pretty tough to get your handicap down. I've spoken to numerous people from all types of handicaps from Scratch to +20's and even the pro and we all agree that it should be like a 65 course rating (We've been saying it needs to be rerated). I was playing off like 8 as a index and under the new system I think I got 1 shot so for me to get my handicap down I'm going to have to shoot +2 or better which I find really tough.

Now I'm playing away at one of my other local courses near me. Much tougher test with a rating of 69/123 Par 70 I feel I have a way better chance around this golf course,

When we do play these we have no mulligans of course but we do normally have like a 2v2 match going on and we do gimmes but they are not generous at all. If people want to cheat to get their handicap down then that's on them its only really going to bite them in the bum. Its obviously the other way where I see a problem.

From your description of what you do, it could be said that you are both not playing to the rules of golf and are attempting to manipulate you handicap.

However, handicap manipulation of that nature is within the rules in England as you are not required to submit all cards. Hopefully you register you intention to submit a score for handicap prior to playing. Gimmies are inexcusable; if the shot is so easy, then why not take the 2 seconds required to avoid cheating?

 

[Supernova]

From your description of what you do, it could be said that you are both not playing to the rules of golf and are attempting to manipulate you handicap.

However, handicap manipulation of that nature is within the rules in England as you are not required to submit all cards. Hopefully you register you intention to submit a score for handicap prior to playing. Gimmies are inexcusable; if the shot is so easy, then why not take the 2 seconds required to avoid cheating?

Personally I always tap in and I always have that mind set if its that easy. However, There are times when one of us will chip/pitch to like a foot and will just give it to them. It's not perfect but it's at least its not the other way. We wouldn't do this in a comp of course. We defo 'sign in' before a round got punished for that the other day. Played away somewhere 2 days ago and it was in not state to put a score in. Fairways had grass cuttings left out, Green had a load of sand on. One hole we all got our balls down the fairway only to look round the dogleg to see green keeper on the green hollow tinning so we couldn't actually finish the hole. None of which was on the website nore was said when we arrived at the club house.

 

[Backsticks]

Personally I always tap in and I always have that mind set if its that easy. However, There are times when one of us will chip/pitch to like a foot and will just give it to them. It's not perfect but it's at least its not the other way. We wouldn't do this in a comp of course. We defo 'sign in' before a round got punished for that the other day. Played away somewhere 2 days ago and it was in not state to put a score in. Fairways had grass cuttings left out, Green had a load of sand on. One hole we all got our balls down the fairway only to look round the dogleg to see green keeper on the green hollow tinning so we couldn't actually finish the hole. None of which was on the website nore was said when we arrived at the club house.

A bit of common sense and expected score get over these issues, but will take us time to get used to it.
We are coming from a world where competition cards and handicap cards were one and the same thing. So we generally made our best effort to observe the rules. We certainly didnt play breakfast balls or gimmees.
And that is still the way with everyone playing in a competition here, I am sure. Nothing has changed.
But on casual qualifying scores, then the bit more leeway is acceptable, and a 1ft gimmee, perfectly reasonable. Or not looking for a plugged ball to keep play moving, and just dropping another and getting on with it. It is intrinsic to the whs background in the US. And quite a different thing to blatant handicap manipulation.

 

[Alan Clifford]

and a 1ft gimmee, perfectly reasonable.

But why? I just don't understand. If it's so easy, take the 2 seconds to putt the ball in the hole.

 

[Deleted member 29109]

But why? I just don't understand. If it's so easy, take the 2 seconds to putt the ball in the hole.

Exactly my thoughts.

The point of the game is to get the ball in the hole. Not somewhere near it.

 

[Supernova]

But why? I just don't understand. If it's so easy, take the 2 seconds to putt the ball in the hole.

I totally get if you putt it to one foot just step up and tap it in. If someone is pitching or chipping from a distance and he gets it within a foot or whatever then yeah I'm probs giving him the putt to save time as he'll have to put his club back walk to the green etc etc. I say sometimes as it might be a bit of a slider or something and I'm not giving it then.